villain is 50/7/3 after 60 hands. Is stack off pre with this rundown bad option?

if you wanna gamble is not, you have 50% against the worst aces

You can't really go wrong stacking off with premium rundowns, but I think a call in this spot isn't a bad option either since we are 125BBs deep. CO has effectively capped his range to non-premium AA (otherwise he would have 3Bet himself). We would expect CO to jam ALL board textures since the SPR will be like 0.2 or something ridiculous like that, but it gives us a chance to save 45BBs vs boards that smash villains range where we have little/zero equity against. ie. A33, or even the 226hh board like the one in the hand (which we have 5% equity vs AAxx). If we do call we only need ~15% equity, so obviously stacking off very very very light.

I know I sound like the biggest nit... but eh.

^agree with everything. Although there should be some consideration for how loose MP calls behind. If he is tighter I prefer jamming.

potting first time is mistake, raising is ok but don't pot it.

If you go around flipping all the time you won't have a decent edge, especially at a stake where rake is so significant. Try to see flops and leave a decision, this allows you to make more optimal decisions and allow mistakes in opponents. Exception is of course when you actually have an equitable edge you want forced through.

could you elaborate on that?
i pot it 99% when i 3bet but often think about whether it makes sense to not pot sometimes. in what kind of situation would you not pot it? what are the factors which make it a pot or less than pot 3bet?
thank you!

lol what? Craziest thing I've ever heard in my life.

with call pot call call spr is going to be very sweet to get flop implieds, as when it hits it hits well, but it has to hit, as it goes potting out of BB with 3 to act behind it will get you into thin spots 100% consitently but with a higher flop spr then there is actually something mineable.

Against this particular villain, i don't like 3 betting. If he has any positional sense at all (not a certainty) then he has AAxx maybe 50% of the time here, and it's also reasonable to suggest the remainder of his range is weighted towards KKxx and pretty broadway hands, which we do not want to isolate. Meanwhile, our 3 bet chases out more hands that we dominate, than dominate us.

So overall, against this villain at these stakes, i prefer taking a nice 3-4 or 5 way pot and hoping to flop gin.

Then don't even bother raising if this is your line of thinking.

I agree with Elrazor's post.

Which hands would you 3bet in that spot when you're not 3betting QJT8ds ?

i like 3b, just i fold to 4b now, you could GII but you'll be behind, and you could flat but you gotta call most flops, yes we know what V has but its pointless with the SPR

Once you 3b you can't fold to a 4b. You're priced in to stack it off.

Seems bad getting it in pf with this hand. In PLO you need to see flops to win. It's not a close your eyes and gamble game.

When UTG limps with 48bbs - AAxx. I'd 3 bet if UTG was full stacked.

In a more general sense, it seems such a waste to just flip this hand against AAxx when you can take a multi way pot where we have both a hand that is intrinsically better than out opponents, and hopefully a better understanding of how to play post flop.

Concepts like balancing are utterly irrelevant at these stakes.

Elrazor pretty much nails it here.

vs a 50/7 who is clearly insanely unbalanced, we should just play as exploitative as possible

clicking it for a min raise is not much different to calling, or it is difficult to determine which one is superior, preflop implied graidents and flop gradients just get inflected when respectivally when there is no 4b and when someone 4bs. That probably makes no sense, it is difficult to articulate, the main reason you don't pot is to promote multiway action and reduce 4b height. Potting minimises multiway action and maximises 4b height, but there is space to increase these variables as they translate to not a superior gradient but more volume of $ which goes through this presumably profitable gradient, which is not as nice heads up as it is multiway due to the hand texture, reducing SPR is somewhat useful to negate positional disadvantage. Calling and having a small pot is a bit disappointing when you hit, as whenb this hand hits it is only weak in the flush draw dimension when there are better flush draws- that is not much concern as most of the time we have hit other draws. We can easily 3b against MP if his 4b range is AA and have an easy time on the flop with this stack siez, but if you pot it then it makes him make more money, there are reverse implieds in higher SPR's due to his nfd and him hitting his set. UTG is the biggest threat as he is short.

Not sure what villain you are referring to - MP/CO? But really don't know how you can narrow his range to having AA 50% of the time when he raises it pre?

I think people are too concerned about UTG here. Sure, if we know he likes to limp with AA (or other hands he is willing to 4b/GII) then we don't want to 3b. But if he just limps too often with garbage then most of the time he's folding to a 3b or if he comes along it will be a call.

3betting less than pot is something that can def. be used at these stakes for the most part. Although be wary of villains capable of exploiting that by 4betting strong QQ/KK and strong Axxx DS hands vs your 3-bet as they know you don't have AA.

If the game is rife with 4-betting then flatting is clearly best option here otherwise I don't see a good reason not to 3-bet - but flatting is still obv a good option too and if villains play particularly weak post-flop then I prob flat nearly always.

If he is raising 7% total, then IF he has any positional sense, then he'll be raising around 3-4% from EP, so he'll have AAxx ~50% of the time. I did qualify my original statement by stating that is by no means a given.

We are talking about a half stacked UTG limper, and a guy playing 50/7. These guys probably struggle to tie their own shoelaces, so being worried about them exploiting us at PLO10 with a light 4 bet when we don't 3 bet full pot is over-thinking things imo.

Agreed, but from what I can make out CO is villain in this hand and not MP? And it was MP that raised EP and CO that flat.
Agree with this too - I did say that for the most part we can 3-bet less than pot and not be exploited. We're obv not worried about CO and UTG exploiting us, just MP (if he is a good reg)

OK i was talking specifically about whether to 3 bet or not once the action gets to us. The action is UTG limp - MP raise - CO call and 2 folds the decision is on us to either close the action or re-open the betting. At this point, it's UTG and MP that we are really worried about - UTG because he limped with a half stack (not that i would given him any credit for being decent enough to re-raise us here - it's just as likely that's his whole BR in front of him), and MP as he is only raising 7% of hands.

I agree with your second statement for the most part, other than to say UTG can exploit us by 4 betting his short stack. Other than that we can miniraise, and while the whole table will know we don't have AAxx, none of them will be smart or bold enough to exploit it.

50/7/3 after 60 hands is mroe than reasonable to expect non fishy skilly level... Don't forget that hero can be displaying exploitable LAGGY tendencies

I don't see how anyone but UTG could exploit a smaller than pot 3b, CO reshoving could be exploiting the pot bet if hero's pot 3b rate is too high and he's getting frisky with AK** KK** AQQ* and so on.... but even then he is probably going to have non uber aces and dead money will account some of the loss, if it goes 3 ways then its *shrug* breakeven,,, so we are worried about UTG because of his stack depth, if everyone is 80-100bb then 3bing is kind of redundant but being 125bb deep is corssing a threshold, with him being 48bb and UTG limp raising ona much deeper avg stack table, limp raising is going to be a hugely viable part of a winning game.

no no no out of the BB we inlcude some % of aa** hands (on the weaker side of aa**) into this non pot 3b size, a full potting 3b range out of the blinds is hard to gear profitably to me due to UTG stack size and we need to balance so that AA** and non aa** is indistinguishable. All one could deduce from me playing this spot is that I don't have ds connected aces as I pot this hand from anywhere at any time 99% of the time. Less than pot size 3b generally = more 3bs possible and so more 4bs, and also it tilts people into 4bing., whic is fine here playing 125bb stack, but not as fine when against a 100bb or lower stack.

Elrazor, you're still missing the point that MP doesn't have 50/7/3 stats - it's CO that has them stats. At least that's what it looks like to me from OP.

Ahh, i see what you mean. Yeah that is unclear - i was obviously aware that the shover was not the guy who raised, but imo the main villain is the guy whose raise we attack (at least his stats are the only ones that are really relevant)

Perhaps OP can clear up whose stats are 50/7/3, and provide the stats of MP if they are not his.

No it isn't. What you mean is that it's much less than reasonable to assume a non fishy skill level. Any guy playing 50/7/3 who isn't a fish is an outlier.