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5PL - flop play with top set on monotone board 5PL - flop play with top set on monotone board

02-11-2014 , 12:56 AM
Pre-Flop: I think this is pretty standard, have strong hand pre and I raise for value. If CO/BTN calls and I whiff the flop, it could be tough, but I still have a strong hand.

Flop: In this case I hit the flop, but its also very wet and scary. Could be facing a made flush, and if I'm not then I feel like I'm ahead. Not happy I'm holding one of the sixes. My plan: bet to induce any non-made hands to fold. If he calls, I can check down the turn to get a free card, as I'd expect low flushes to check. Is this sound?

Is it worth calling the check-raise to see a turn? I don't ever see this check-raise as anything but a made hand.

Thanks!
hobz

[converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Omaha Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #23408841

BTN: $5.90 (118 bb)
SB: $1.90 (38 bb)
BB: $17.63 (352.6 bb)
UTG: $4.81 (96.2 bb)
Hero (MP): $7.40 (148 bb)
CO: $6.83 (136.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J A A 6
UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.15, 2 folds, SB calls $0.13, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.45) 6 Q A (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.43, SB raises to $1.72, Hero ??
5PL - flop play with top set on monotone board Quote
02-11-2014 , 05:44 AM
yo, this board is as dry as it gets in plo, plus you holding top set reduces the possibilities of him calling you oop with anything but a flush, especially with your sizing.
don´t get me wrong, betting has def purposes, for deception, balance, little bit protection, little bit value etc, but your logic seems to be flawed...

jam it in now.
5PL - flop play with top set on monotone board Quote
02-11-2014 , 06:11 AM
Quote:
My plan: bet to induce any non-made hands to fold
So your plan is to get all worse hands to fold? Great plan.
5PL - flop play with top set on monotone board Quote
02-11-2014 , 09:02 AM
OP I think you missed out some info with regards to the BB. Did they fold to the SB C/R? If so it is mandatory that you GII here. (however betting flop is a mistake!)

We need 34% equity vs villains stacksize (he is effectively AI), and we have 31% against a flopped flush. Since we are not 100% certain villain has a flush we cannot fold (could be playing QQxx this way, could just 'feel' like bluffing for the hell of it, house could be on fire and has to go urgently etc...) No point in calling the C/R and evaluating Turn because SB will have like 1BB behind..

You should check the flop here (to elaborate Ivanovic) - Betting here doesn't accomplish much, besides maybe protecting your hand from a possible broadway draw. You only get action from a flush, QQxx or 66xx (there are 3 combos of QQ and 1 of 66, and like too many flush combos to bother counting). Villain almost always has a flush here, but once you pot the flop there is no way you can fold to his C/R
5PL - flop play with top set on monotone board Quote
02-11-2014 , 09:27 AM
I do a flat.
5PL - flop play with top set on monotone board Quote
02-11-2014 , 09:31 AM
As Sauhund alliterated too, betting here can definitely accomplish something. The main reason to bet here for me is as a semi-bluff. We are drawing to the nut FH and by betting we can put maximum pressure on all of villains non-nut flushes here.
5PL - flop play with top set on monotone board Quote
02-11-2014 , 10:03 AM
Quote:
My plan: bet to induce any non-made hands to fold. If he calls, I can check down the turn to get a free card, as I'd expect low flushes to check. Is this sound?
Never good to induce correct plays from your opponents by betting... specially in this way ahead/way behind type of board (except sets), where their folds are correct almost always. If your plan is to get called by small flushes and get a free card on the turn, why don't just check back the flop? Like it would make any difference to know if they have non-nut flushes on the flop or on the turn... if they have nothing they'll fold anyway and if they have the nuts you just trap yourself.

You do have some sort of plan going on, but what would you do if you got check raised? (oh, wait) And why this sizing?
Imagine, for example, if you want to bet/call against opponents that only check raise flushes in this spot, and will gii anyway if the board pairs. By potting, you're only giving yourself worse implied odds to call and hit your full house (as there is more money going in on the flop instead of letting it to other streets).

Giving SB's stack you might as well just ship it now... Wouldn't be surprised if the shortie showed up with QJTx or something (braindead stakes ftw).
5PL - flop play with top set on monotone board Quote
02-11-2014 , 12:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CocteauTwin
I do a flat.
do you fold if he jams blank turns?
5PL - flop play with top set on monotone board Quote
02-11-2014 , 02:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sauhund
do you fold if he jams blank turns?
SB is sitting 40bb. Flop is eff jam anyway
5PL - flop play with top set on monotone board Quote
02-11-2014 , 02:52 PM
V is not deep enough to fold this ever ever, call flop raise hit call any auto call, when he bets 18c into 4 dollars
5PL - flop play with top set on monotone board Quote
02-11-2014 , 03:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eifersuchtig
SB is sitting 40bb. Flop is eff jam anyway
i was trolling
5PL - flop play with top set on monotone board Quote
02-11-2014 , 06:44 PM
Thanks all for the replies... I realize the flaws in my logic now. You can read about why you bet and setting your opponent up to make mistakes, but it doesn't click until you do something silly like this.

If we check back the flop, how do we proceed if: a broadway comes? If a blank comes (which id imagine is alot of cards here)? How would you gauge an opponents bet? Check?
5PL - flop play with top set on monotone board Quote
02-12-2014 , 08:57 AM
Bet 1/3 pot otf, never betting pot especially with this SPR with any part of range.
5PL - flop play with top set on monotone board Quote
02-12-2014 , 09:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hackdeath
Bet 1/3 pot otf, never betting pot especially with this SPR with any part of range.
SPR against BB is still pretty big...
5PL - flop play with top set on monotone board Quote
02-12-2014 , 10:39 AM
^ Agreed there are 2 different effective SPRs. But the smaller one is more important I believe.

I think the main value in betting a lockdown board such as this with our range is FE. There is also value in threatening stacks.

With low SPRs we can threaten stacks and get a better price on FE with a smaller bet. With larger stacks, a small bet doesn't leverage our stack fully. So with 2 effective SPRs we have to decide which is more costly; getting a worse price on FE or not being able to threaten stacks. I strongly feel that the FE is more important at equilibrium, and especially vs most of the player pool who play quite fit/fold.

I think it is more important at equilibrium for similar reasons to why a short stack has an intrinsic advantage when playing against larger stacks. Without the presence of the short stack, larger stacks can play more loosely vs each other. However when the short stack is there, you have to tighten ranges and importantly lower bet sizes to prevent giving the SS profitable resteals. I think the same logic applies to this spot.

The vacuum play is to bet small anyway, since we only get action from a range that has more equity than us.
5PL - flop play with top set on monotone board Quote

      
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