Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > General Poker Discussion > Televised Poker

Televised Poker Discussions about televised poker shows of all kinds including the World Poker Tour, NAPT, WSOP, Poker After Dark and High Stakes Poker. Sponsored by PokerTube

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-04-2012, 02:43 AM   #1
newbie
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 34
Why did Antonio have to show his cards?

At approximately 2 hours, 27 minutes into the Big One for One Drop broadcast on ESPN today, Antonio Esfandiari and David Einhorn were in a hand that checked the flop and turn. And then on the river, Antonio (1st to act) asked if he could open fold.

Jack Effel says Antonio can fold, but both players must show their hands. I couldn't hear the conversation between them after that because the announcers were talking.

Does anyone know what Jack Effel's reasoning was behind requiring both players to show? And whether this is a rule newly put in place, or whether this is even a rule at all?
I Love Pizza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 03:06 AM   #2
old hand
 
chinagambler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,729
Re: Why did Antonio have to show his cards?

To prevent collusion?
chinagambler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 09:01 AM   #3
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 212
Re: Why did Antonio have to show his cards?

Surely he could just muck his hand if he wanted to. Why did he have to ask permission in the first place?
donked_to_death is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 05:19 PM   #4
newbie
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 34
Re: Why did Antonio have to show his cards?

I wrongly assumed that everyone else also watched the broadcast. To clarify, here is the situation.

The river card has just been dealt. Antonio is first to act (of two players). Before acting, Antonio asks the TD whether he can fold (instead of check or bet). The TD then says that Antonio may fold, but that both players would have to show their hands. So Antonio then tabled his hand and folded, which forced Einhorn (the other player) to also table his hand. Showdown was never reached.

My curiosity about this ruling lies in the fact that Player A may exploit this situation by folding (instead of checking or betting) in order to force a gain of information (Player B's hand) that he ordinarily would not receive if he acts (checks or bets) as normal.

I understand that obviously by forcing both players to table their hands, it may expose chip dumping. What I want to know more specifically, if anyone here knows, is

1. Is this actually a rule? Or did the TD come up with this ruling on the fly?
2. Other than to expose chip-dumping, was there any other possible reason that the TD required both players to show their cards? (Not that exposing chip-dumping isn't enough of a reason by itself.)

The reason I ask the above is I have never seen this rule applied in a non-showdown situation before, and I am curious about its origin and purpose.
I Love Pizza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 05:52 PM   #5
veteran
 
Chloe O'Brian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: CTU
Posts: 2,191
Re: Why did Antonio have to show his cards?

The collusion argument is stupid and illogical... if they were colluding like this, they could just agree to have the player out of position, Esfandiari in this case, check-fold to any bet and neither would have to show their cards. Ok in this tournament every hand is televised so they'd find out something was going on, but I'm sure the rule would be the same for a normal tourney.
Chloe O'Brian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 06:00 PM   #6
centurion
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 140
Re: Why did Antonio have to show his cards?

Angle by Antonio to get to see the other's player's hand for free.
HypersionSD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 06:19 PM   #7
veteran
 
chytry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,053
Re: Why did Antonio have to show his cards?

What if the other player folded as well'?
chytry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 06:29 PM   #8
veteran
 
Chloe O'Brian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: CTU
Posts: 2,191
Re: Why did Antonio have to show his cards?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chytry View Post
What if the other player folded as well'?
Other player can't fold can they... if you're playing HU and someone openfolds the other player automatically gets given the pot.
Chloe O'Brian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 06:59 PM   #9
centurion
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 161
Re: Why did Antonio have to show his cards?

WSOP has a show to win rule this year, Antonio simply exploited the rule because he wanted to see Einhorn's hand. I really don't think this was an angle at all, Einhorn was being reluctant about even showing his hand to the holecard camera(even tho he signed a contract). This was merely a live pro needle at Einhorn for making a big deal about pros being able to see his cards.
Ace-Klingodiamonds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2012, 02:32 AM   #10
stranger
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Port Hedland, Western Australia
Posts: 6
Re: Why did Antonio have to show his cards?

I am not sure if by showing his hand face up when action was on him that would force Einhorn to open his, surely if Antonio open his hand in a heads up situation the action is still on him and he is still required to Check, Bet or Fold regardless of the fact his cards are now face up. If he checks then all Einhorn has to do is either Check and then open cards as per normal showdown or Bet and make Anotonio have a decision. I think the fact that his cards are exposed are irrelevant to this as he chose to expose them himself.

If the TD did insist that Einhorn opens his cards I do not believe this would be a correct ruling.

Just my opinion on this anyway.
Loggie86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2012, 12:33 PM   #11
veteran
 
chytry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,053
Re: Why did Antonio have to show his cards?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chloe O'Brian View Post
Other player can't fold can they... if you're playing HU and someone openfolds the other player automatically gets given the pot.
online
But what if he does not want to show?
chytry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2012, 01:39 PM   #12
newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 39
Re: Why did Antonio have to show his cards?

The commentators commented on the fact that when Antonio folded he also read Einhorns Hand. I think he said 'your ace is good', Einhorn had AK. Maybe it was a bit of meta game to intimidate the amateur.

Not mentioned though was that Einhorn was refusing to show his cards to the hole cam. Since the players were learning the hole cards 15 mins later they were annoyed that he wasn't showing and said so at the table. Maybe he just wanted to force him to show.

Soon after they seemed to come to an agreement to show all cards at the end of a hand with more than one bet.
rvabdn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2012, 02:39 AM   #13
stranger
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11
Re: Why did Antonio have to show his cards?

all players had a rule that they were going to show hands at the end < dont know if that had anything to do with it
ConnorM1888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2012, 09:16 PM   #14
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,832
Re: Why did Antonio have to show his cards?

The TV commentator said the players had an agreement they'd show their hands (for every hand), this may just have been one instance of it
Kittens is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive