I think that i'm probably super slow in posting this but for the benefits of those who hasn't seen it.I myself just happened to see it. I think this lie is really out of line,we are talking about a 60k pot and not some 0.2/0.4 home game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHJsS...eature=related

nah, you're not slow.

we really needed a thread on this, ty sir

it's poker.

I remember this hand. To me it's not an angle because no edge is given. Tony locks himself into being all in (iirc) and then tells Phil he didn't look. Phil can then do whatever he wants and Tony is screwed. Tony lied, but so what. It'd be like if Phil was tanking and Tony said "I'm weak" when he had KK. Who cares? Phil played the game and made the wrong decision based on a read, that simple.

Now if Tony gains some kind of edge it's an angle. Say Phil is in the SB and Tony is in the BB, Tony says "lets shove it in and not look", Phil agrees and complies, Tony looks at his hand and decides what to do. That's an angle/cheat as he gains an edge in game play. Where was the game play edge in the hand that happened? All Tony really did is give the greatest live hand reader of all time, , additional information. Phil used the additional information poorly.

That has to be one of the funnier things I have seen at the professional level.

Tony G is playing on a different level here, and it is the essence of poker.

pretty sure they had a lot of history (without any specific major incidents) before this hand

"G" = "Gag" ... "like, a-oh, ma-y, gh-ad!"

How it probably went down...

[cue lights, ready action, ready to roll cameras...back-stage 'chat' in the Green Room]

TV Execuitive Producer: "We need ratings (after the bribe, aka "support") to help 'mask' all this political fall-out about so-called 'il-legal online gaming sites' -- the idea is to create more 'drama'...so, get 'tangled' with Helmuth AMAP."

G: "Yeah, right, and this isn't a 'free-roll' now is it?"

TVEP: "No, you're definitely covered...as soon as the check arrives in the mail from the bank (aka 'payment processor')."

G: "Right-y, tight-y, ho, no worries, ma'ate."

TVEP: "You need something else --last-minutes-- ready to go on stage soon..."

G: "Yeah, have one of the girls send over a fruity-tonic, doubled-up...don't forget a little straw, too, might come in handy as need to keep hands freed up to get some angles in...[wink]...you know...right...ha...right?!"

TVEP: "Got it! OK, up-and-ready, the 'Pig Show' is about to get on!"

G: "Ha! Without Tilly in there, who would'a known!! [laughing together, nose stuffed up, clears throat, half-tucks shirt] And, a-w-a-y WE GO!! Yeee!!"

[lights, camera, action...cue Amanda Leatherman]

"Hello everyone, and welcome to the Pig Show! -- Oh, F#&%!! -- DAM IT, sorrrrry....god...."

I just have a problem with Phil Hellmuth complaining to or lecturing anyone about table ettiquette.

Plus, other than his conduct toward Surindar in the WPT, I have never seen Tony G go after anyone besides Phil with that kind of treatment.

I love Stapes, but when he says that Tony G should get bad karma... I have do disagree and say that Phil has earned it. Tony G is the manifestation of bad karma for Phil. I respect the hell out of his game... but I have no tears for him, regarding abuse or mistreatment.

Ya..how could Phil believe, and act based on his "i didnt look comment"..geez man..who doesnt know tony g?
I didnt look=AA/KK here..obvious

If i was playing 100k NL... i would prob pay attention while every1 is looking at their cards... lol. Just fishy of helmuth. poker is all about tricking your opponents, if they are not paying attention, take advantage! this is as much of an angle shoot as helmuth trying to get it allin with his AJ against a blind hand.

Of course it gives Tony an edge, Phil will adjust his calling range accordingly. Tony has a premium hand, AK and instead of only getting called say by QQ+/AK he now gets called by a much wider range, say 88+/AJ+. When Tony says he hasn't looked at his hand he essentially increases his hand equity against Phil's calling range.

Phil adjusting his calling range is his decision.

I'll put it this way, if Phil can sit there and say, "I think you're strong....do you have it? This'd be pretty thin....(stare down, ruffle chips, pump, etc), you have it Tony?" and the like why can't Tony say, "I didn't look Phil" and not be telling the truth? It's just fair play to be able to lie about your holding and that's all he did. He didn't gain an inherent game play advantage based on some agreement. Phil tries to read people, Tony talked some stuff, Phil interpreted the stuff wrong and made a bad call. There was no cheating/angle.

What if Tony told Phil he was strong and then rolled his eyes and laughed? What if he said, "I'm bluffing and I'm going to show you 8 high and make you look like an ass on the telly!"? How is that different? If players are allowed to read players (and Phil often takes this to ridiculous levels) the players being read need to be allowed to say what they want. Again, this isn't a spot where any binding game play agreements fundamentally changed. If Tony said, "lets just shove it in Phil I'm not even going to look" and gained an advantage by abusing that situation I'd call him out. This just wasn't that. It wasn't an angle. It was table talk, against a guy who talks more than anybody...and often more inappropriately than anybody, and Tony played him. Phil lost at his own game.

Again, why would the best live hand reader of all time incorrectly change his range based off a (gasp) LIE somebody told him about his holding? If anything Tony spotted Phil an edge by not just stone-facing him during Phil's decision.

This was very funny

A player like Phil needs to know whether an opponent looked at his hands.

imo it is not even an angleshot, just a lie. Are you supposed to tell the truth when you are playing big cash games.

what a ****ing trashbag, can't believe it