Im not really sure tbh. The only lesbian she has ever shown an interest to is VS. My girl will be 45 this weekend and we have been together 10 years. Im not worried about her going anywhere.

McPhee said something about if she can do it with 44, she could have stuff like A5.

How does it compare?

If her bluffing range in this spot includes 44 (the hand she had) then it probably includes worse Ax (which is more what he was hoping for imo).

Because its basically the same hand.

Yeh..Both are bad hands and are hands when you hear call you arnt too happy but you bluff with them as you can still be live if called.

He beats worse aces and flips v 44 and has great odds to call v both them hands therefore they are practically the same thing

You guys are leveling me, right?

44 flips against a wide portion of his calling range, A5 doesnt.

Right?

I'm not going to get into talking strat in the tv section but here's this for you if serious

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

863,001,216 trials (Exhaustive)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
44	32.69%	279,351,324	5,579,904
77+, AQ+, AxTx+, JxTx+	67.31%	578,069,988	5,579,904

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

513,691,200 trials (Exhaustive)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
Ax5x	35.89%	179,668,640	9,378,028
77+, AQ+, AxTx+, JxTx+	64.11%	324,644,532	9,378,028

The guy championing Vanessa I hope is just leveling (I think that's what you guys say here). If not, wow. Lol at judging people based on a small sample. It's tv poker of course you're going to comment on what you've seen of them on tv. Also, if somebody is the table coach whiny entitled bitch every single small sample you see guess what she is? Vanessa really doesn't make sense to me. If she was from some dirt poor country or terrible background she would. As is just go crush Wall Street or cure cancer or something. It's poker shut up and let the gamblers gamble and make your money. World Series of Chess isn't lucrative for a reason but keep trying young people you'll get poker there soon enough. Oh, make sure to keep bitching that it's not 2007 anymore as well while you berate the 72 year old grandpa who ponied up 10K for not understanding ICM. Lovely.

I went back to look for the post-hand interview and I guess Vanessa needs some Ranges lessons also.

http://www.pokerstars.tv/poker-video...episode-8.html

13:55 in.

i wouldn't say i'm championing her, just trying to neutralise some of the butthurt itt.

we all know how vanessa can be, but do we really need another thread filled with people complaining about her? i think not.

i only posted this hand because i was surprised it didn't have its own thread.

as far as the hand goes i was merely giving my opinion. that's what this forum is for. i speculated that it seemed like a crazy play, but i'm intrigued to here what people like you or others have to say about the hand (not about vanessa...)

You dont think Vanessa knows that anything below AT is absolutely crushed? She wouldnt play A5 because of that.

It's just such a terrible play by McPhee. Hi lol I wanna get it in w 40% vs your opening range HI LOL. HI LOL A9 does really great if you only shove JJ+, AK and then every hand in your opening range worse than A9. OH WAIT A9 is still an underdog vs that range. OH WELL LOL. AT LEAST I GOT IT IN GOOD.

Im not vanessa selbst so I dont know her thought process here.

But im talking about his call.She is playing v the player and any ace is a blocker to a bigger ace,therefore she can defo have a random ace that she doesnt want to fold because she feels he isnt strong..She obvious isnt expecting to be called that why she could definitely have a worse ace here as her final shove isnt for value.

Again Im not vanessa selbst but its a levelling war and to take smal aces out of her range just because they are crushed is wrong.

Anyway Im confusing myself...But macphee is a better player than me or you and he decided that arag is in her range so i suppose he is right.

When i made my first post asking why were people comparing 44 to A5 in this spot i hadnt seen her post hand analysis. But after some discussion i looked it up and she confirms that -obviously- she wanted to win the hand pre, but had a hand with very decent equity against his calling range, which included lots of Ax.

I posted the link and time mark in this thread. Look it up.

how does VS do in cashgames? seems like a huge spazz... lol nh vs friedman the nit

well that was ******ed for both of them

superaggro monkey style

Vanessa Slebst should be banned from Poker, she is single penisly destroying the very fabric that this fine game of skill is built on

I watch a bit more from that episode and selbst comes across like a spoilt child.

Iv seen him comes across as a C*nt before but here she is saying why is coming after m he is my friends.

Its as iff she cant do any wrong and that mcphee should roll over and let her crush the field.

Its somehow his fault yet she is the one who first opened and make the final shove.And mcphee is right she makes the last agrresive play so if anything she is coming back after him.

Stapes is right both of them are doing it to each other so no need for vanessa to get all whingy about it.

If she feels tht she shouldnt be playing marginal spots against her friend whos a good player when they are both favourites v the field then why is she 6bet shoving such a marginal hand

oh dear oh dear

You've made like 20 posts championing her against legitimate points made by everyone. What's the agenda? Even you have admitted that she's frequently vile. If your point is that even nasty people have decent moments, I think that could be said for anyone who is considered a bad person. Even serial killers have soft spots in certain aspects.

In terms of the hand itself, the one thing that bothers me is McPhee feeling the need to justify his call both before and after he made it.

I see this frequently, and I think that it comes due to the anticipation of being berated. The one thing that people like Selbst have done is bully people into making horrible folds due to the fear of being berated. This is nice for the game, I suppose. Oddly enough, you see players make far worse folds than calls now, which is so different than years gone by. Weak and passive players will fold to all-ins when getting astronomical odds now simply due to not wanting to be berated for calling with a worse hand pre-flop.

I agree with some of what you said but not all of it.

- I think weak and passive players are generally making "bad" folds not because they're afraid of being berated, but simply because they're bad players who don't realize how favorable the odds are and don't recognize situations where they should call with almost atc.
- I agree that McPhee was justifying his call a little bit, especially after the hand when he saw how mad Vanessa was, but I read a lot of the pre-call talk as just walking through the hand and make sure for himself that he really wanted to call off in what he knew was a marginal spot.
- I do think that intimidation is a big part of Vanessa's game... Just like Hellmuth, I think that she uses the fear of being berated by her to get people to get out of her way in spots where they probably shouldn't. And, she gets other players to call her down super light because they know she is capable of spazzing out in some spots... And when she's really on her game, she knows which players will react which way, and that is one of the things that makes her a great player. And although she seemed mad at McPhee after the hand, I bet a lot of her anger was also directed at herself because she misread the situation (i.e., he called her with almost the exact hand that she probably thought she would get to fold to her shove).

Also, just another random observation: I found it particularly poor form that she complained about the hand to Liv... I mean, I know that Liv is your friend Vanessa, but she's also Kevin's gf, so I really didn't like that Vanessa tried to bring Liv into the middle of the situation.

My point is that people like you are comparing vanessa selbst to a serial killer...

Also how can I be championing here if I also aknowledge she can be vile at the table? Just trying to provide an alternative view other than "hurrrr durrrr she sux!!!"

In her post hand interview I think she reasoned her thought process very well and it seems a majority of people itt are blindly defending macphee for a pretty questionable play for personal reasons.

Thanks for your response, as you make excellent points all around. I particularly agree with your last several statements. If Vanessa can use her mouth and actions to elicit the reactions that she wants both ways, then she is surely in the elite. Many creative players get frustrated at others for making hero calls, but don't look at themselves for misreading that they're up against someone capable of making such a call.

I hadn't thought about the venting to Liv, but I agree with you that that is perhaps even more classless than her ranting to McPhee. To force Liv to play peacekeeper in that situation is really unfair.

I still believe that the weaker/more passive players are making more bad laydowns than ever, but you are certainly right that there have always been horrible laydowns even prior to the widespread berating. I don't believe that McPhee would have ever gone into such detail against anyone else, and sort of think that it's sickening that he feels the need to justify himself in anticipation of Vanessa's harrassment. However, it it is often human nature to try to appease bullies.



Fair enough. I think that there have been several decent posts regarding why McPhee's call was appropriate, but it can certainly be argued otherwise. Regarding discussing Vanessa's personal behavior, there are two options: 1) everyone has somehow decided colloboratively to gang up on her, or 2) she's really unpleasant to play with and these are individual critiques which are merited. I can only speak from personal experience in saying that the second category applies. Being a great player and being a rotten person aren't mutually exclusive IMO, and Vanessa would certainly not be the first person to possess these duel traits.

My opinion on Selbst remains the same. Amazing player, undeniable results, horrible attitude. I have immense respect her knowledge, skill, determination and drive, but I can't stand her inability to take a beat with even a little class. Oh well.

Miles Davis was a racist, misogynist *******, but I'm listening to Isle of Wight 1970 right now for the 500th time and it's still some of the greatest **** I've ever heard.

Vanessa should really work on being more professional in live tournies.......I know her ego is massive and she thinks everyone is terrible(which they usually are) but she'd look a lot better just being positive and accepting people get it in bad.....more people should handle things like Ivey - he clearly doesn't give a **** what happens.

PS - liv looks smoking hot in that video