Hey guys,

This spot comes up a tonne and I'm never sure what I should/shouldn't be doing.

You're holding a bluff-catcher on the river and villain bets. you call and villain announces something like 'pair of tens' instead of showing his hand. You have something that beats a pair of tens, but it's villains turn to show and if you reveal the strength of your hand, villain gets to much and conceal his holding.

My instinct is to look at villain and make a face like 'let me see' then insta-showing when he flips over his hand. I don't want to slow roll but at the same time I feel I'm entitled to wait until villain shows his hand or mucks as it's his turn not mine to show. Should I just be flipping over my hand or am I OK to wait?

From an etiquette perspective, if you beat what he declares, you should show right away. You give him the courtesy of not assuming he is lying and misdeclaring his hand. But if he were ever to turn over something better than he declared, then he goes on the **** list and you always make him show in turn forever.

I've seen rich businessmen get very insulted when they declare a hand, the other player insists he sees it first, then shows a hand that beats it. They said stuff like "did you think I was lying?" and sometimes left to go play blackjack.

So it's within your rights to demand he show first, and some will say you should to get the info. But the littile info you get that you couldn't figure out anyway is miniscule, and the benefit of keeping a player in the game and making bad plays is great.

Of course, if he declares a hand that beats yours, you never muck until you see it, just incase he misread his hand.

^^ agree.

Wikipedia: Etiquette is a code of behavior that delineates expectations for social behavior according to contemporary conventional norms within a society, social class, or group.

Now if you are at a table full of cutthroat pros, the proper thing might be to wait until he shows or mucks.

Etiquette is courtesy in spite of any entitlement. It is proper etiquette to offer your subway seat to a pregnant woman and to tip your server even though neither recipient is entitled. You therefore cannot practice general etiquette if you're concerned about your own entitlement.

You are okay to wait for the other player to show, but it is not proper etiquette.

I agree with the above posts. You have every right to wait, but don't be that guy.

The guy said he has a pair of tens! Show your hand!

If, however, he has proven in the past to NOT have the hand he claimed to have(and was just being a jerk or w/e) then naturally he's not going to get the same courtesy.

But when someone announces the bulk of their hand and you can beat the bulk of their hand, turn your hand over, cause, does it really matter what the kicker was? I'm sure whatever read you have on this player is far greater and far more substantial than whatever the actual kicker may have been in this particular hand. And, even if you didn't establish any real reads yet, chances are his hand would've been played out *fairly* the same way.

Players also miss things. They flop a pair, pick up a flush draw on the turn, don't hit their flush but instead river a second pair but they overlook it cause they just weren't paying good enough attention or they had a brain fart or w/e. You have two queens. Still wanna see his kicker???

I fast roll whenever I get to showdown, no matter whose turn it is to show based on the action or position. I already have a million pieces of information on my opponents, I don't need to embarrass them and waste my time and the time of everyone else at the table to squeeze one more out of them. The only time I don't immediately turn my cards over is when it is mass multiway and I have a hopeless hand, because doing so in this situation will actually slow things down.

And poker players lie.

I'm ok with waiting.

If I'm dealing you don't have to say anything.
When you don't flip your hand right way I will tell the guy, "You're first, show the tens or fold em.".

If the dealer is no help you just say, "I called you.".

In my opinion, these little 'no, you show first' games are pretty annoying and you really aren't giving up that much information if you just show quickly. That being said, if you don't want to show until he does and don't want to be seen as slow rolling you could just say 'I called you, but I can beat tens' without showing and wait for him to show. You won't be slow rolling, and you won't be giving away your hand without him showing.

You will annoy every other person at the table, though, so don't do it if you care about etiquette. Just show. If he slow rolls you, you gave up very little information, while he damaged his table image.

I usually don't have a problem just rolling my hand over if I call an opponent and he announces a hand that I can beat. In most big pots or all-ins, I usually fastroll my hand no matter what.

For me though, a peeve of mine at the poker table is when people don't roll their hand over at showdown when it's their turn to do so. You'll call a player's river bet and they hold their cards up facing themselves or just freeze up an do nothing as they stare at you waiting for you to turn your hand over, all the while not making any verbal declarations of what their hand is. Everyone at the table knows you were bluffing, table your hand or muck it, it's that simple. The worst is when you watch 2-3 people go to showdown and none of them believes they have the winning hand. They then proceed to all look at each other waiting for someone else to table their hand; drives me crazy.

If I'm called by another player, I table my hand immediately or just muck it if my hand is essentially the nut-low. It doesn't matter if I have the nuts, a busted draw, or an outright bluff. So many people are scared to roll over a weak hand, but they fail to realize that by stalling it allows everyone at the table to realize you have nothing anyways.

If I call an opponent and he doesn't roll over his hand in a timely manner and he thinks he's going to wait for me to show first, I usually make eye contract with the dealer and that's enough for them to inform the player that he's first to show, all without me having to say a word. If the other player has come off like a tool at the table over a period of time, I then sometimes tell them "I called you" and hold my cards out in front of me to let them know I'm waiting for them to show. I don't do this very often though and usually reserve this for players at the table that for some reason just rub me the wrong way.

once he declares he has pocket tens, just table your hand instead of holding up the game and waiting to see it. There's no reason to do that, unless you hold a loser and wait to see it before mucking.

Once day you are gonna shoot yourself in the foot when he announces pocket tens and you have pocket aces, and you make him table his hand only to realize he had straight that he didn't see and scoops the pot on a hand he would have mucked. People do muck winning hands.

Once he declares he has pocket tens, say "I can beat that," or "I can't beat that," and smile

Well put.

Don't listen to those saying "Don't be that guy." Personally, my actions in this scenario vary depending on the opponent, but you are well within your right to see his hand. There are too many people who abuse etiquette or think etiquette trump rules. Rules are there for a very good reason in most cases.

The better who was called is breaking etiquette and rules at the same time and basically forcing you to be "that guy" (If someone called the bet, show your damn hand!) If he doesn't want to show his hand, stay at his level. As someone said above, just verbally declare your own hand or say "I have you beat." The dealer should be asking the better to show or fold as per rule and this should not take too much time. If it does, it's not your fault. If someone gets offended, feign ignorance and say "I thought it was against the rules for me to show first, sorry."

Obviously, if we are talking about a whale or fish, you could let this go. But the overwhelming majority of the time when I see this, it's a competent player who knows better. He is at best trying to save face, and at worse trying to angle.

This is exactly what I do as well. I will take the extra time it saves to see a hand or two more per hour rather than wait to see if I get that tiny little piece of info I may or may not have already have on a player.

I think poker players bluff, yes, but the vast majority of the players that I've ever played with will have the 10's in this spot when they say they have the 10's in an equal action situation, AINEC.

And, with all due respect, please don't tell the player to show his hand. I know you want to speed up the game but maybe at this moment, this player is embarrassed by entering the pot in EP with T5 suited; I promise you this hand will be over and pot pushed in a couple of seconds.

"Show em or fold em" is very different than "Turn your hands up."
Which I hear dealers say everyday and I cringe.

And the only guy slowing the game down here is the guy who's
turn it is to show, saying "I got tens." instead of showing or mucking.

As a player I'm just showing my hand and hoping tens guy folds without showing.

As a dealer if the caller wants to show in order I'm happy to facilitate that.

he already declared he has a pair of tens. What do you wanna see? Suits?

If he declares a hand you beat, just table your hand so everyone can move on to the next hand.

I usually just show my hand. But if they lie, (which seems to happen to me a lot) they get put on the 'make them show first every time' list.

They lie to you a lot?

misdeclaring your hand to make someone muck a winner is considered cheating in the game which can result in a ban if it happens after a first warning.

against most recs and amateurs ill just turn my hand over but i dont feel bad AT ALL for saying muck or show. if they muck i can muck and withhold information just like them

They're not trying to get someone to muck a winner. They're stating a weaker hand than they actually have to get the other person to show and then slow roll them.

Nope. I'm That Guy. Show when it's your turn to show.

((Probably because my usual live game is populated by lyin' thieves that love to slow roll. "Two Pair" is a pair of red tens and a pair of black tens.))

There are also enough players that find "Tens" will get the other player to show....when they are not entitled to the information. One tight reg in my game is notoriously famous for sitting stone dead when it is his turn to act. Poisons the pond for the rest of us....

No. That ridiculous who's going to show dance takes two and you are a willing partner.

Is it called for on occasion, yes. Did I exonerate the person who doesn't want to show, no. That being said I think the player who would make a rec or fish show tens here is far worse for the game. Do you want him to tighten up his range because he knows he has to show?

I swear for a community of poker players you rule nits just don't get it.

You are assuming he is holding pocket 10's? You're also assuming it's all about the villain?

Big picture, (and getting really nitty) outside of information on whether he has 10-2 off or A-10 suited, the villain declaring and not showing in line with the rules is an attempt to commandeer power and information that belongs to the caller.

Sure, in most cases it doesn't matter. But I think people are over valuing etiquette, "saved time", and what's good for the game ITT. The OP should not feel dis-entitled to his action and information, however useful (or not) it may be.

I'll add that everyone seems to assume in this situation that villain could be a whale and hero is the solid player. What if the villain is a pro and hero is the whale? Are we asking whale to forfeit his entitlement? Absolutely not, and I've heard people at the table violate OPTAH to explain such.