Mod Note: I created this thread out of several posts in the Breakroom thread as it had developed into a general discussion about calling the floor, with both card room employees and players giving their opinions. As a reminder, the Breakroom has special posting rules limiting participation by non-card room employees. It is not a thread for players to share their opinions on the topics discussed or debate rules or procedures with dealers. Please see post 1 in the Breakroom thread for further details.

I had a rough one the other day.

There is a player who I would not have called a angle shooter or a dirty player, but I would have labeled them as troublesome. There are always issues or communication problems with them. They play with an aggressive edge and are not afraid of conflict. I have gotten into numerous conflicts with them (as has nearly every regular and player). It is just their personality.

The problem is that in the past one of the conflicts I got into with them and I was wrong. It was completely inadvertent and a misunderstanding on my part, but I was wrong. I apologized genuinely and completely. I was right on all of the others, but in this one in particular I really screwed up. So being one of those people who despite being right 90%+ of the time, the fact that I got it wrong badly once makes me a bit gun shy.

So anyway this player is at my table (which is a tournament), and they suffer some terrible beats (multiple beats). No procedural issues, just bad luck. Of course I hear about it, but nothing major. Eventually they bust and leave the table.

Later in my string, I am getting ready to tap into a game. The dealer I am following is a bit of a newbie. I think he is fairly decent, but still new. Eventually he is going to be a very good dealer, even now he is, but strange situations can throw him.

Anyway, I walk up to the table and tap him on the shoulder and playfully say "Get out of my seat." to let him know I am there. I briefly look at the action without really paying attention and see that this problem player is at the table and in the hand. The flop is out and they have bet $2500 into a ~5200 pot (again not really looking closely). One other player calls. The turn comes and the problem player checks. The opponent throws out a $5000 and says four while holding up 4 fingers.

The problem player immediately throws out $400. The dealer hesitates and the other player (the bettor) says "No, it is $4000." An argument ensues and the problem player quickly verbally overwhelms the other player and the dealer insisting that since the blinds are $200/$400 that it was a $400 bet. There was some back and forth, the other player (being a nice guy) seems ready to give in just to get the conflict over, the dealer is lost. He just doesn't know what to do.

I lean in and tell him to call the floor. The problem player immediately tells me to mind my own business and stay out if it.

The dealer calls the floor and he comes over, he listens to everything and then (correctly) rules that although the bet was vague, given the size of the pot it was clearly a $4000 bet, especially given the immediate correction by the other player. The floor also warns the other player to be more clear in his bets in the future or risk an adverse ruling. The other player humbly acknowledges the warning.

The problem player grumbles yet calls the $4000. The river comes out and the action goes check, check. The problem player was to show first and hesitated, the other player hesitated as well waiting for them to show. Eventually the problem players aggressively throws their cards toward the muck facedown. The other player then shows his hand (top two) despite not having to. Dealer pushes the pot, moves the button and taps out. I am guessing the problem player had a missed flush draw for what it worth.

I sit down and immediately start to hear it from the problem player. They are berating me foe getting involved. It gets to the point where they are crossing the line, but I am gun shy so I don't say anything and just take it.

Eventually, the problem player busts (again) because they are tilted and stupidly shove when they shouldn't. As they get up, they start loudly verbally berating me to the point where the floor notices it. The floor comes over and asks what is happening. The player immediately starts in about how I am an incompetent dealer and should be fired. The floor looks at me and I explain what happened. A couple of other players stick up for me and the problem player walks away.

I think it is over and it is just a bad day.

Eventually I get tapped out and go to tap into the next game when the shift manager grabs me. We go in the back and asks me what happened. I explain everything to him. He then tells me that the problem player has accused me of being friends with the other player who bet $4000 and cheating. I then tell him to talk to the other dealer who actually dealt the hand and the floor. I furthermore told him the history between me and the problem player. I was then told to go on break and to start at the top of the string when I come back.

A few hours later the floor grabs me and tells me that the problem player has been banned indefinitely and that I did nothing wrong.

Nice, however it still sucks having to go through all of that and now have this incident in the back of his mind.

Nothing wrong with a bit of caution .. but what I like best is that you IMMEDIATELY jumped into the fire to 'protect' a newer Dealer even though you had history with this patron. THEN your management didn't jump to conclusions and took the issue off the floor for evaluation. Sounds like a well rounded house to work in.

Even though this Player was probably a contributor, word of the ban will spread through the Player pool which will shore up some viewpoints and let the whole staff know that management is not gun shy when it comes to these types of spots.

It's part of the job, you have to write some tickets once in a while. GL

That's the one part I DIDN'T like.

This player sounds like he's terrible for the game and deserves to be banned after repeatedly bad behavior, but I think there should be one dealer per table, and I was once involved in a hand where a bad decision was made due the the involvement of the next dealer who was about to push into the game.

The new dealer should have known to call the floor on his own.

Screw that. I'm all for the next dealer getting involved in:
* Protecting a new dealer
* Getting rid of a problem player

Furthermore, as a player I will sometimes do the same thing too.

I get that you were on the bad end of a decision that was caused by the next up dealer once, but it could have just as easily happened the other way (and probably has, more often than not). If you see something, say something.

I am very hesitant to get involved in another dealer's game, but this was a clear case of the new dealer getting bullied into making an incorrect decision in a substantial pot.

Oh, as a player I would have been calling for the floor myself in this instance. But sometimes the dealer standing behind thinks he knows what is going on when he really missed part of it.

In this case it would have been quicker for him to just go get a floor himself. Probably wouldn't have gotten as much enmity from the argumentative player either.

But really if a dealer doesn't know to go to a floor in an instance like this, IMO he shouldn't be in the box at all. YMMV.

And sometimes the player thinks he knows what is going on when he really missed part of it or is mistaken. I still want him to speak up. If he's wrong, so be it.

Perhaps. But this dealer is in the box. Now what?

Wait to see if he does the right thing or not. If you think he doesn't, let him know later.

And sure, players can be wrong, but they are part of the game and should have a say. And I'm not one of those guys who thinks "you're not in the hand, STFU". If I am in a game and I think something is wrong I will always say so. But I don't think railbirds should. And in this instance, I don't think a dealer who isn't at the table should either; he has railbird status in my mind.

How much experience do you have working in the industry?

Let me get this correct. In this case it isn’t ok for this railbird dealer to suggest the ne2 dealer to call the floor but it is ok for the railbird to call the floor himself. Remember the new dealer in the box could ignore the railbird if he knew or felt the railbird as missing details or context.

No, I said railbirds should not get involved at all. Players certainly should and I probably would have called the floor had I been playing in the game.

I understand others may differ in opinion, that's just mine.

Over 10 years as a professional working in card rooms. Just no salary. 😊

I'm a bit surprised that we all don't agree that if ANYONE sees something that is obviously, egregiously wrong, they should speak up. I don't care if it's a player, railbird, or the cocktail waitress. If a rule of poker is CLEARLY being broken, my opinion as both a dealer and a player is that someone should speak up. There's no grey area in this instance-- the rule is 100% clear, this is a bet of 4000. The dealer should know it, and call the floor if the player protests. If we were pushing into a table and saw the dealer shipping the pot to a straight when another player had tabled a flush, would we say nothing because it's not technically our table yet? To me that would be totally unethical. Players are obligated by rule to speak up when something is wrong, and a dealer pushing in should certainly have the same responsibility.

Now as Gump would say, that's all I've got to say about that.

This wasn't about a rule being broken, it was about the interpretation of a vague statement.
It seems to me that it was decided fairly, but if it had gone the other way it would not have been a tragedy, not even close to a pot being shipped to the wrong player.

TDA rules:

57: Non-Standard and Unclear Betting

Players use unofficial betting terms and gestures at their own risk. These may be interpreted to mean other than what the player intended. Also, if a declared bet can legally have multiple meanings, it will be ruled the highest reasonable amount that is less than or equal to the pot size* before the bet. Ex: NLHE 200-400, the pot totals less than 5000, player declares “I bet five.” With no other clarifying information, the bet is 500; if the pot totals 5000 or more, the bet is 5000. *The pot is the total of all prior bets including any bets in front of a player not yet pulled in. See Rules 2, 3, 40 and 42.

This bet can only be interpreted one way. This is the rule. It's not vague.

Correct, and it appears the rule was applied correctly. I said it was the statement (the verbalized bet) that was vague. Others could have easily expected a different ruling, as I'm pretty sure the rule used to be that the bet was the smallest amount over the previous bet, nothing having to do with the pot. This is actually a bad rule, IMO, because in NL holdem the dealer isn't even supposed to make the pot size known, which this rule makes it necessary to do. Regardless, there is no way for a player to violate this rule, it is a rule for the people running the tournament (the dealers and floor people). I'm not going to clog up the thread with any more of my opinion on this matter, but I can't imagine anyone thinking that if this rule was broken (by the dealer) it would have been as bad as him pushing the pot to a straight when a flush was tabled.

I disagree with this on so many levels. I've spoken up several times when I've caught mistakes, whether it was a dealer misreading a hand, making an error on a side pot, or a host of other issues.

If I see a potential problem that will require a floor, I'll try to subtly call the floor over myself. I've also done this when I'm dealing on one table and I see an argument heating up on the next table.

We're on the clock and one of our first (maybe the first) responsibility is game protection and game integrity.

As for the new dealer belonging in the box, this is unrealistic. There is no amount of training or practice that can prepare a break-in dealer for the reality of live poker. We do plenty of training on game situations but dealing with difficult personalities never comes up in dealer school.

I wasn't telling him to call a floor because I was thinking there was going to be a mistake or or a misapplication of the rules. Like you said, I could have easily been missing context as I wasn't really paying close attention to the action.

I told him to call a floor because there were multiple players and the dealer openly and loudly arguing about what happened. In those situations the floor should always be called. At that point it is beyond the dealer's place to make a ruling.

I did sort of get the floor myself. I started waving him over as I leaned in to tell the other dealer to call the floor. I guess I was telling the dealer to call the floor as sort of a teaching moment about what he should do in these situations.

It was obvious the angler was mad I pushed to get a floor involved because he absolutely knew he was wrong. He knows the rules better than most dealers, he was looking to get away with a lite call. Furthermore, if he really thought he was correct he would have welcomed a floor intervention.

I also suspect that he had probably been warned more than a few times and he knew management wouldn't tolerate any more (hence the ban). It wasn't just me he did not get along with. He caused problems for everyone.

For some reason many new dealers are reluctant to call a floor. Some may think it reflects poorly on them. Some probably don't even realize that they should.

That is probably the biggest piece of advice I would give to a new dealer. When in doubt about anything they should call the floor. No matter how stupid they think it is. That is literally what the floor is there for. A good floorperson should never be mad about making a floor call no matter how benign it is. In fact, most floors are happy to make floor calls as it gives them something to do and makes them look important.

There are times where something arises when I am dealing and I 100% know the right answer. It might even be something I have seen a million times (like out of order action or such), I will often call the floor simply because I think an answer from someone in a suit will more satisfy the customer than me saying the exact same thing.

Many new dealer's don't think like that for whatever reason.

FWIW, that's not a "new dealer" thing but applies to other customer-centric jobs too. Everybody hopes that things just go away on their own without a superior ever noticing that something went wrong.

Not sure if that's a thing with poker dealers but in other areas seasoned workers tend to do the exact opposite to basically rid themselves of all problems. I could see that in poker when two well-tipping regulars get into a dispute and the dealer would benefit from having the floor upset one of them opposed to having to do it themselves.

As the person in charge, you walk a fine line between letting your employees know they should call you whenever they're in doubt but also to handle "standard" situations on their own instead of calling for assistance every time.

Bad day nah unenjoyable having to deal with such poker players and well some people in general now days. Can imagine it was pretty unsettling overall as well to have to go thru all that with the higherups too. But good on you for doing the right thing in my opinion and in this case those that mattered. I think it's every player with a decent or good moral compass job to protect the integrity of the game and get things right. Getting the floor involved here was the right thing to do. So I say good for you. Hopefully this experience will make you a little less gun shy in the future when dealing with this guy and any player like him in the future.

On the bright side and one thing you didn't mention or thought of. Congrats you're now pretty well known to the higher ups and floor staff at your local poker room and they know as a good, fair and honest guy. It's nice to have good relationships and have a god rep among those that matter most.


Cheers!!!

That sounds s to be current TDA TOURNAMENT rule. Traditional cash game rules is vague action to be interpreted as least aggressive option. But not even that was ever universal. Ruling it as far from cut and dried. Where I play pretty sure they still use least aggressive action for cash games.

I really wasn't meaning to start a thread of criticising you, and I understand why you did what you did. I was just thinking if you had discreetly gotten a floor to come over yourself, it could have saved you some personal enmity from a player who obviously gives it out easily.

It is interesting that you say new dealers are often reluctant to call a floor, because it is very easy to do, and as you explain, can often satisfy everyone fairly quickly and without the dealer coming across as the bad guy. I don't think I could likely do a good job overall as a dealer myself, because I would find it difficult to navigate the player personalities (along with a lack of hand-eye coordination). But the one thing I know I would get right would be "when in doubt, call the floor".

That is basically what I was thinking as well. But I gather from reading the forums that many rooms are now using the TDA rules even for their cash games. Plus I'm pretty sure the OP situation was a tournament.

Certainly could be a tournament. I leaned that way initially. Something made me question that assumption. Then I saw the blinds and bets all described with $ signs. Of course I often forget how many folks describe those in terms of dollars even though it is nit accurate.

If it is a tournament (prolly likely), per current TDA rules the floor ruling is definitely correct. I very rarely play tournaments (can’t remember when was last time) but I (like you?) seem to recall TDA used to lean toward least aggressive action also but I also don’t know when it was changed. I would definitely not say a rule was clearly being violated as one or more persons have here. I could clearly see myself assuming the smaller bet was correct since prior to this thread I thought that was the correct rule.

While it's certainly impossible to put Dealers through 'every' various spot during training .. and it could take months/years to run into specific spots while in the box I think there's some procedure that could be implemented that is just a catch all for a Dealer in an escalating spot.

"Players, here's my interpretation of the spot. That's how we're going to move forward unless you'd like me to call the Floor over."

If the Floor goes the other way then the Dealer has to be ready to say "I'm glad we cleared that up, (I learned something today) let's move on."

Every room is going to be different when it comes to 'backlash' when calling the Floor over. Are new Dealers actually graded on Floor calls? Possibly, but that really shouldn't be the tone set by the management and/or Floors since it may cause hesitation.

IMO Floor calls during a tournament are less 'bothersome' to Floors than cash calls .. as they should be. Implications of 'rulings' can impact beyond the table where the spot occurs. Obv if the Floor is called over for a spot that seems elementary then there could be some future discussions with the Dealer, but the overall tone of the room should be that when you run into a spot, call the Floor over. While I suggest that there's going too far as well. I've seen rooms where the Floor is called much too early on a regular basis, but that's what management seems to want.

Let's put a spin on this .. Are we, as a Player, to be offended if a Floor just happens to be walking by when this spot occurs and steps in without 'officially' being called into it?

In this particular spot I think the pushing Dealer saw pretty much everything he needed to see to make an informed decision to interject themselves into it. Certainly any staff that's 'late to the party' should use caution before choosing to step in and possibly causing the ship to stray even further off course. GL