sounded like a string bet to me...

did cantu make a bet, then the 500K was just a call?
and Losov was pushing out too big of a stack? never announcing a raise?
that detail i missed...

however, YES, Losov donked off the rest of his chips but...
so did Cantu a while later!! He went from 12,000,000+ to
under 4,000,000. And the 88 vs AJ hand was horrible.

( Cheeno Rheems gives the play-by-play: "the kid SNAP CALLS!! and
goes 'That's what I thought!!' " )

So, to me, it looked the whole situation with Cantu and Losov
put them both on serious tilt.

Maybe it wasn't it worth it Cantu to argue so much about it in the long run.

Sounds exactly like the Todd Brunson angleshot vs. Laak on HSP two seasons ago.

i saw it yesterday and the first phrase he said was basically "go F yourselfs" (which wasn't really bleeped), then there was some bleeps, then i think he asked something along the lines of "why are you picking on me?".

he seemed somewhat shaken by what was going on, and i don't think he realized that what he did was a stringbet or that it's against the rules.

Did he put him on the nuts or something? Just reraise...
I didn't rewind my tivo, but it didn't look like the most obvious string bet, in my opinion.
Heh, poor guy had to sit there wondering wtf was going on...

Because I don't have a copy of the Live Action Poker Manual, which the WSOP claims is their foundation, I'll rely on Robert's Rules:

"A wager is not binding until the chips are actually released into the pot, unless the player has made a verbal statment of action".

I think this is why the 1st floor asked if his fingers let go of the chips. He never 'released' them.

Another statement from Robert's Rules that people sometimes take out of context:

"In limit poker, if you make a forward motion into the pot area with chips and thus cause another player to act, you may be forced to complete your action".

But, neither situation occurred here. When I first heard and thought about it, I thought they blew the call too. After seeing these rules, I think they made the right decision. I hope Cantu starts using the pump fake to prove a point and cause the WSOP to address this gray area in the future.

Yeah, but remember when M. Carroll is doing his demonstration with both TD there....he pushes the chips forward (doesn't release them), then pretends his opponent says "call" and pulls his chips back and throws just one green chip. The TD blatantly says "that would not be allowed."

I don't see the difference between that scenario and what happened to Cantu...seems like both fall under the rules, then.

2009 WSOP

Lon: Looks like Cantu is going to bluff at this pot with nothing but bottom pair.
Norman: ...and Hellmuth does his classic insta call and flips up the nut flush!!!!
Lon: Oh no, Norm, Cantu was just pump faking--- he never released his chips!!!!
Norman: And obviously, now Cantu has decided to fold, just like my ex-wife folded on our marriage.
Lon: Hellmuth decapitates himself.

I don feel bad for Cantu

at first I think he was licking his chops and planning on popping the dude after his larger river bet, then he put a smaller bet and Cantu wanted more chips in the pot. But he was in a tuff spot because if he was too adamant about calling the floor and would have given away strength of hand.

I think he handled that part well.

But as he sat there and waited for first and then second ruling and thought and thought, and thought (omg what if he has AJ?), he decided jsut to call. to much time to second guess himself.

If he still felt like he was cheated out of the larger bet, then he wouldnt have just called, he would have raised. so, he cant; complain about the ruling costing him chips.

Not sure if this helps clear anything up, but at least this is from 2008 tourney written rules:

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=6&gl=us


"81. Dealers will be responsible for calling string bets/raises. All players at the table are encouraged to assist in calling a string bet/raise if a dealer fails to identify one. Stringbets/raises called by a player must be verified by a floor person. A string bet/raise is defined as attempting a bet or raise in multiple movements that include a return to a player’s stack without a prior verbal declaration of intent or include deception intended to induce action our of turn before a player’s action is complete."

"Yeah, but remember when M. Carroll is doing his demonstration with both TD there....he pushes the chips forward (doesn't release them), then pretends his opponent says "call" and pulls his chips back and throws just one green chip. The TD blatantly says "that would not be allowed."

I don't see the difference between that scenario and what happened to Cantu...seems like both fall under the rules, then. "

The difference is in bold. If your action causes another player to act, you may be held to that action. This is why the TD said that wasn't acceptable.

I felt really bad for the Russian guy. Obviously he screwed up (though as I can see by the discussion going on, the rule is much too ambiguous for a tournament involving so much money), but he doesn't know what the hell is going on and Cantu wouldn't let him live it down afterwards.

Tough.

I can't believe someone like Cantu let this fly.

You would think he'd would throw a fit of Hellmuth-proportions.

^

Okay, but obviousy there is a huge grey area there. What if, as you begin pulling your arms back in (with your chips still in hand) your opponent says call.....would the NFL Tuck Rule be enforced?

Also, another thing---it's not like they don't have security cameras at each table- considering the size of the pot, the TD should have went to the security booth and seen just how far the Russian pushed his stack in before pulling it back. Based on what they are saying, you could actually push your stack all the way out to the dead center of the table and then pull them all the back to the rail. Should have used instant replay...

doesnt really matter cuz cantu just donked it all off anyway

True that....however, ideally what Cantu wanted was to call 3 million cuz he figured he was good. Obviously, he was willing to risk an extra 1.5 million with 3rd nuts or whatever...but he didn't want to raise and open himself up to a 2nd re-raise in case the Russian did in fact have AJ. That could have potentially cost more than 1.5 million (not sure how deep the Russian was).

what did the russian guy say? anybody have a full translation?

How about when Carrol asked the TD if it was okay to push his entire stack forward, pull his entire stack back, and then throw one chip into the pot? The TD replied that it would not be "okay". How is that any different from what the Russian guy did?

Injustice aside, it was good to see a tool like Cantu donk off his chip lead. I wonder if the TD ruling tilted Cantu.

I think it's a complete joke that Harrah's can screw up the WSOP Main Event AGAIN when there are fewer than 45 players remaining.

Two years ago, they introduced $2M in extra chips when there were 27 or fewer players remaining and this year they allow a player to pull back $1.5M in chips that were clearly intended to be in the pot.

These guys are playing for nearly $10M - it is inexcusable, unforgivable, and unacceptable that Harrah's can keep making terrible decisions at the Main Event.

Don't worry Harrahs as YOU KNOW it is totally ****ed and will not be here in 2 years time

Love to those idiots in management who bought the company for $88...........

bye bye fatty Loveman and the MBA Vegas crowd.......... bye bye..

Here is the extent of "the push"


1. Chips NOT released.
2. Arm not fully extended.
3. Forward motion, yes.

BUT....

Players often make a "forward motion" when pulling chips from their stack to place them in (as yet, an undefined) "work area". Does that motion count as forward motion and therefore a bidding bet? Hardly.

The most important part of the whole clip to me, as a tournament floor supervisor, is the fact that the dealer did not call the "string bet"/pump-fake; he obviously felt that the movement did not constitute a bidding wager.

I definitely don't think that was intentional... I felt bad for Losev because he didn't know what was going on, and Cantu just kept going.

Here is what Losev said exactly: "All of you go f*** yourselves, c*********s."

Too bad Losev didn't do it with a winning hand
They were being dbags afterwards it's obvious that he didn't do it on purpose.

Also they should change the tables next year and use the ones with a white line that you should move the chips over for your bet to count.

I wonder why Michael Carroll was so involved in that ruling.
The guy is getting annoying.

Love the Chris Rock wannabe

Edit: And Tiffany Michelle is really bad

that black dude just needed to stfu, i liked phillips reaction when that black dude went all crazy because the russian started to talk in his own language

"All of you go fund yourselves, communists." ??

That is effing ridiculous!

And BTW Michael Carroll is a ****ing ****.