Hello everyone, first post here.

Playing 1-3 NL. I'm sitting on the button in the #8 seat. Villain sitting in BB at #10 seat. Had been sitting at this table for a couple hours and I have around $500 in chips as I enter a hand with villain. Villain has about $700 or so. In front of me I have two stacks of red $5 chips ($100 a stack) and then to the right a smaller stack of $300 in green chips. They are all right in front of me, in a row, resting against the edge of the table.


I have 88. 1 limper and then folds around to me and I open for $15, he calls and limper folds. Flop is KT8 rainbow. He checks and I bet out $30 and he raises to $80. I call. Turn is another T. He insta-shoves all-in and I insta-call. He shows AK. River was a blank and I win the pot. I start setting my chips out to count and his eyes get real big and he starts freaking out, "wait WHAT I didn't know you had all those greens!!!". Instead of awarding me the pot the dealer then stares at me. From seat #10 vantage point he probably couldn't see my greens clearly. But I'm thinking, I've been here 2 hours he saw me buy-in and I'd been betting and getting green chips in multiple pots. I basically just said in no way was I trying to hide my stack, the greens were right in front of me. A couple other people at the table chimed in saying "yeah man you shouldn't hide those greens". Nobody backed me up. He continued to berate me "that's so f'ed up man, so f'd up" and then called for the floor. I'm thinking are you kidding me...all he had to do was ask how much I had behind.

Floor comes over and after a lot of back and forth, they finally award me the pot and ruled that I only need to have black chips visible. Villain was so seething pissed, he just stared at me for 5 min straight, wanted to murder me. 3 or 4 other people including villain continued to berate me off and on for the next 30min basically calling me a cheat until I finally got up and left.

Now, wtf is this, am I really in the wrong here, regardless of what floor ruled, is it such poor etiquette to not have green $25 chips out in front visible to everyone at the table at all times? Is it not the player's responsibility to know what they are up against when the go all-in?

It sounds like your chips were positioned so he couldn't see your greens. You're not supposed to do that.

Floor made an insane ruling that only black chips matter.

Position you chips so people in a hand can see what you have.

No way to know without being there, but unless you are a complete ass, the rest of the table chiming in indicates that they could have been more visible.

That said, V sounds like sore loser and is out of line. It's a lesson learned, if he really thought you were sitting with $200, they could have bet the hundred or so he thought you had left. Or could have asked, or looked over.

I keep my non-white and non-red chips on top of a red stack.

Assuming seat 10 cannot see them, I still find it ridiculous that the others at the table (who should be on the visible side of the red stacks) failed to stand up for you. Any banter to indicate you were an outsider in a game full of friendly regs?
I'm going to take the unpopular side and say, yes, he should know what he is up against. The fact that you were established at the table for quite some time and supposedly moving these higher denomination chips around in other pots is good enough for me to let you go with warning the first time. That said, you should be keeping them visible--on top of the reds or in front of the reds--and I would be pissed if something like this happened again after you had been warned.

Kind of foolish for that guy to go all-in without being aware of opponent stack though, especially without the mortal nuts. Just out of best practice though, I usually stay informed of all villain stacks after preflop action.

OTOH, if V had won the all-in, I am fairly certain he would have found those green chips as a pleasant surprise without questioning their position in your stack.

Are you saying they were hidden from some at the table? That's your answer right there.

Your highest denomination chips need to be right out in front so everyone can see them, not off to the side where they may be obstructed from view. You were in the wrong but it sounds like this was an honest mistake; just try not to do it again. Also it's not called 'opening' when you raise a limper. Villain sounds like he has emotional problems and I do not blame you for exiting the game I would definitely have left such a toxic environment. Floor is an idiot but at least he did make the right decision in awarding you the pot.

I think most people at the table were not paying attention to where exactly my chips were when the hand played out, hence why others didn't back me up. V did seem to have one friend at the table but I didn't get a sense the others knew each other.

I wasn't being an ass I was pretty quiet and friendly to people as I usually am, he was just fuming about it and making a huge case like I had my chips hidden in my back pocket and then pulled them out. Not sure why others sided with him, apparently nobody else paid attention to my chip count. I even asked floor to run tape if they wanted to see it. My greens weren't behind my reds, they were stacked alongside them...I think only seat 10 couldn't see them but if he raised his head a few inches, there they were.

A part of me thinks he was just pissed at himself for going all in with TPTK without thinking too hard about it, and then wanted to try and save some of it, he was literally all in when the dealer's hand was still on the turn card.

That said, point taken from now on I will stack greens on top of reds to avoid a ****show.

Sorry I can't find an exact replica photo, but they were stacked just like this in a row..but imagine three stacks. My two red stacks representing the black and red stacks in the photo, and my green stack representing the blue one in the photo. So the taller stacks obscured the greens only slightly from that position if you only take a split second to view my stack.

Yes you are right, I originally wrote it as "open", but then remembered there was a limper, so I added that in but forgot to change my original wording.

Do you usually play with your arms "hugging" your chips? A small stack of greens can easily be obscured by your arms.

At any rate, you seem to agree that Villain had a hard time seeing your chips. Therefore, you should make an effort to have your chips more visible, even if you think they are pretty visible already.

I agree he was likely upset for his play and then he loses more than expected. But the simple fact is that your large denom chips need to be clearly visible to ALL players. That usually means out front and or on top. If you have a mixed stack largest denom on top and then work your way down in order.

No seat should need to crock his neck, stand up,lean in etc. unfortunately this is the opposite from what is natural. We seem to all learn to put the big chips on the bottom or even behind. I really doubt you had any intentions to hide chips. But honestly it sounds like you were.

Next time just be sure there is no next time. But if you do have a next time, after the pot is awarded, give the V a cordial, real apology

The floor ruling was an attempt to give everyone a little bit. But in trying to split the baby he made a ridiculous ruling.

First you say the greens are to the right of the reds. Then you say in last paragraph they are in front. They should always be in front.

And lol at floor ruling only blacks matter.

They shouldn't be side by side. You have players to your right and left. They should be in front or on top of smaller denominations.

Just put your larger denomination chips out in front of , or on top of your stack from now on. Gives the best/easiest view to most other players. This is either a written or an un written rule of poker that is in place nearly everywhere I have ever played. Could likely save you from these confrontations or a Floor that might rule against you the next time.

As far as your question yes its bad to not have them visible to everyone, its not etiquette its the rule

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On a side note -- had a guy argue vehemently the other night that he has played "all over, including in Las Vegas" and the room we were in was the ONLY one that required the higher denomination chips be readily visible... ::sigh::

As has already been stated: keep your high denomination chips on top of or in front of your stack(s). Anywhere else is just a conflict waiting to happen.

#allchipsmatter

(someone had to say it!)

Darn it with all these threads getting racial all of a sudden ..

My initial reaction is that you are not a reg and some of the table is and backing up their 'friend'.

300 in greens is not a short stack. (12 the last time I checked) If you had them in 100 stacks along the rail then it could be an issue of your left arm blocking some of them.

2 hours is plenty of time for anyone at the table know how you manipulate your stack. Yes, I've been caught off guard by someone's stack being larger or smaller than the last time I 'remembered' it due to forgetting about a hand they were in, but you should always know how they handle their chips. If you had consistently kept your greens in that spot I would've known to take a peek at them .. or ask.

Whenever I play 1/3 or 2/5 I try to keep more red, but some players don't like all the chips. It still doesn't excuse a player from not knowing the situation.

I would like to flip this around and ask that if our OP had gone all-in first would anyone's opinion on this change? It very well shouldn't and I'm not interested in getting into the 1-chip all-in discussion. A player verbally says "all-in" and gets snap called before any chips can get put out ... "pay the man his money". GL

The fact that he kept seething for as long as he did makes me think this was quite possibly an attempted angle by him. But yeah - just make it so your "large denomination" chips are visible to everyone from every vantage point.

This.
Actually, OP didn't do anything unusual: lots of people arrange their stacks as he did, and usually there's no problem. But there can be, and it's better (and easily) avoided.
IME, many floors would have ruled as this one did (that your green chips were "visible" and in play, as long as they weren't actually hidden behind the reds), but the comment that only black chips need be visible is totally bizarre.

I think for all the other players to agree with the villain that your chips were hidden, they probably were, but he's still two seats away from you so he should have been able to see a stack of 12 green chips even if they were being blocked slightly by red stacks.

As far as calling you a cheater and staring you down, these things do happen and it's the player's fault for not looking carefully at your stack to make sure you didn't have a stack of greens before announcing all in. Im quite certain that if he won the hand, he wouldn't have complained.

Obviously, the floor supervisor who came over doesn't have a clue about poker. All larger denominated chips should be in front where people can see them. He's an idiot. The dealer should also get a KITN for not asking you prior to the hand to place them in front.

I didn't say the greens were out front, I think you misunderstood, I asked if it was poor etiquette to not have them in front.

The V should man up and accept responsibility for his mistake.
It happened to me recently: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27...-also-1645932/

Asking "how much behind" when facing a large bet should prevent this.


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It was not an intentional angle on my part. If it was, I wouldn't be posting here about it because I would know that what I did was wrong.

In any case, point taken on having my green chips out front and visible especially when I'm in a hand, lesson learned on my part and I guess I was lucky they awarded me the pot.

Others have suggested I may have been hugging my chips or my left arm was blocking the view as well. And too be honest that very well could have been the case, I do that sometimes, not intentionally. I just can't recall if that was the case this time but it very well could have been.

On a side note, about 5 years ago this same thing happened to me when I was in seat 5 and opponent in seat 6 who I thought was shortstacked and I went all in on a failed bluff and didn't see 3 black chips on the left side of his stack. At the time I sucked it up and considered it my own fault (and still think it was my fault) but I guess I could have made a big stink about it and could have possibly gotten money back. I prefer not to play that way.

Thanks for the replies all, much appreciated.

While it sounds like you were (inadvertently) hiding your stack of greens, it is very common to have chips stacked in a way that a significant stack can be obscured by other chips or your arm. If your stack was visible to the majority of the table, and the other player made no attempt to ask you to raise your arms or ask what you were playing, I don't think he has a case to argue that you were deliberately cheating.

But yeah, make sure your larger denomination chips are in front or on top. Playing tournaments (especially the daily's), one of the quickest ways I can tell someone's experience level is how they stack their chips. The ones who put their large chips on the bottom (which is more natural...except in poker) are quickly labeled as inexperienced or online players.