FW tournament, before the money.

Pot is raised pre-flop and by the turn the pot is fairly big.

The turn puts three diamonds on the unpaired board with the A being one of them. The woman in the BB bets like 7,000. The guy goes all in and he has the woman covered. There is about 20,000 in the pot and the woman has about 11,000 left with the blinds at 600/1200.

This is where it gets interesting.

The woman opens up her hand (Q9) like she is making the call and basically tables it except she is still holding the cards. The guy immediately says "you are drawing dead"... There is a short silence and complete inaction.

Then the nit picking, table captain, jerk, know-it-all says "don't turn over your hand - she hasn't acted yet" to the guy who was about to table his hand thinking she had called. The Dealer confirms that she hasn't called. And now the guy bows his head and pulls back his cards which he just about tabled. The guy next to him has seen his hand but says nothing.

There is an awkward silence as the woman has a tough choice to make. Should she call as she most definitely was in the process of doing? Or should she take advantage of what looked like 100% solid accidental "exposure" of the guy's hand and complete her unintentional angle. After debating for a few moments, she mucks her hand face down.

Dealer takes her cards and the guy looks crestfallen.

Nobody calls for the Floor. The Dealer has lost control of the hand and doesn't want to look bad. Both the woman and the man are likely to get 1 round penalties if they speak up. The idiot moron table captain realizes that he has caused enough trouble for one hand. Even if what he did was maybe technically the right thing to do. I know this because it was me.

We played on. The woman got eliminated soon after. We went to break. During the break I realize that I would have made the call anyway. Guy I was talking to says he would have folded like the woman. I mention that if the guy didn't have the nut flush this was the best angle I have ever seen. We both laughed because it was so absurd.

What would you have done if you were the woman?

It really depends on what "basically tables it" means. Did she table it, or not table it?

The backs of the top of her cards touched the table as she was still holding them. I would say her hand was tabled. Many people would say her hand was not tabled. Not sure what FW would rule.

But I think it doesn't matter because she didn't say anything. So she didn't call and she didn't fold. She had just exposed her cards. Which should be an automatic one round penalty if she survives the hand...

And the action is still on her.

"technically the right thing to do."????? You violated OPTAH. Each player is responsible for tracking the action and not exposing hands until action is complete. You should not give advice to a player during a hand. If floor was called you would have been issued a warning or given a penalty also.

Not reveal the contents of my hand until action was complete. (It really is a simple game.)

It really isn't a OPTAH violation. He is clarifying where the action is, and preventing a player from acting out of turn. I would have done the same thing, most likely.

I vote for the above.

The woman exposed her hand before making any declaration of her action or intent. She may have been trying to get a read on the other player. Or maybe trying to trick him into showing his cards so she would know what she should do.

It was not at showdown as there was another card to come and both players were NOT all in. So the other player should NOT have shown his hand. So the OP was correct in stopping the other player from revealing his cards.

The dealer was at fault because s/he should have said something first. Such as, "Wait. Ma'am, what is your action?"

is a clear violation of TDA rules.


You can identify a mistake. You cannot give advice to another player on what to do with his cards.

Just my opinion:

"don't turn over your hand - she hasn't acted yet" = OPTAH violation

"she hasn't acted yet" = OK

I would look at the dealer and says something like "She didn't call yet, did she?" Or just say there are exposed cards with action pending.

The room I play in will give a warning if you advise a player during a hand. Second time would be a penalty.

Preventing another player from making a possible mistake effects the whole tourney. It could give an advantage to the person giving the advice. I would call the floor and ask a warning be issued for OPTAH.

If this was on the bubble and I was on a short stack, the advice could cost me making it to the money.

How much time do you imagine OP had to decide how to phrase his warning? This isn't a OPTAH violation.

It technically sounds like OPTAH violation to me. But I'm also ok with minor rule violations if it helps prevent angles from succeeding.

Agree. I think the guy who spoke up is fine. At worst, a minor OPTAH, and as Latt says, who cares if it stops an angle.

IMO you can't force the lady to make any decision. She has the right to make a decision now. She should, however, be given a one round penalty after the hand.

In the case above, I 100% agree with the following....

Pretty slim difference there.

How about "don't do anything - she hasn't acted yet"

Same thing, OPTAH violation. It's the "don't do anything" or "don't turn over your hand" that is the problem - no imperative phrases.

At least 5 years, assuming the OP is at least 21 years old and has been able to read the TDA rules since age 16.

I respect your opinion that giving player advice during a hand is not a OPTAH violation, I just disagree.

Can someone quote the actual OPTAH rule?

It seems to me that the rule is meant to prohibit strategic advice, not procedural advice.

If I were a floor, I certainly wouldn't hand out penalties for this minor/technical of an infraction.

This forum get's nittier every day.

It's not like he said "Don't call/fold/muck, she hasn't acted yet". This isn't a violation of OPTAH at all. This is a guy preventing what was likely an unintentional angle, and making sure everyone was aware of the current action.

Telling someone not to expose thier cards mid hand ins't an infraction in my eyes and isn't within the spirit of OPTAH.

The OP appears to be a nice guy that wanted to prevented the other guy from having to serve a penalty that would have cost him a small and big blind, and from falling for an angle.

Problem is that this advice cost the other players in the tourney the dead blinds that would have occured if penalties were enforced. This could cause a money swing in bubble situations.

OPTAH is mentioned in several places in the TDA, but never actually defined. This is the closest I could find:

I had always assumed OPTAH was about strategic advice and not procedural matters. I do things like prevent the BB from folding if he thinks he is UTG. Or stopping somebody from mucking if there is still a side pot to be awarded. And people have done the same for me...

Even if this were a violation of OPTAH the penalty at FW is a warning for the first time.

But now I am aware that how I say it could be important.

This happened over a month ago and I am trying to remember exactly what was happening when i said whatever I said (I don't remember the exact words either...). The man was in the process of tabling his hand. And the dealer was preparing as if to burn a card and deal the river. Now I 100% believed that the woman was drawing dead but still I think I was motivated as much by the guy about to table his hand while there was still action as i was by not wanting the Dealer to burn a card and deal the river prematurely once both hands had been tabled. And I do think the dealer believed that she had called too even though she hadn't said a word.

I'm thinking it was selfish to an extent because it was going to take a while for the Floor to untangle this and make a decision.

The OP is not the one who spoke up. Not that it should matter, but the table captain who did is not described as being a nice guy.


This seems to support the "strategic, not procedural" distinction.

a = b = c

I believe we call that the transitive property of idiots.

This is laughworthy.

Cards are not tabled unless/until a call has been made to complete the action.

In this case, she apparently exposed her hand with (her own) action pending.

If you want to be ridiculous, let us know so that we don't waste our time. While the player moved to flip his cards, OP did not have "five years" to decide how to warn him.

Clarifying the action here is fine. Technically and mistakenly violating OPTAH in order to clarify the action in an emergency, time-sensitive situation is forgivable.

Oh, that's the game you play. Now it's clear.