Cha,

I have no idea what you're thinking about in the JJ hand.

AQ is a little brutal with no reads, but I just muck it.

In general, this plan blows because you get it in soooooo bad most of the time when he calls.

Devin,

Tough hands, and I don't think I have great answers.

A3s hand, I put him on an ace I can beat and shove. I don't really feel good about it, though.

77 hand, I would check the turn most of the time. I think the trick in these spots is balancing your turn action for the times you have 77, the times you have KQ, and the times you have 99. So, I think you have to bet this part of the time, but perhaps this is one of those spots where balancing just isn't necessary.... I don't know.

cha i would just call flop in the AQ hand, i don't think raising that flop is great, esp multiway. as played i think you gotta fold.

the JJ hand, eh, just ship it

Cha,
If you are raising the flop you should be snap calling a shove.
2nd hand,
UMMMM you have JJ vs a 35 and 59 bb stack
Ship it in and be happy about it. Again if you don't know what to after you squeeze (aka snap turbo insta get it in) don't squeeze.

Did you catch that it's MP who shoved and not the guy who lead into the field?

fwiw, i don't think raising that flop necessitates a call.

i think we're damn far behind and i don't see the need to compound 1 mistake with another. but obv i'd love to hear any further thoughts you have. i assume it comes down to math... pot is so big that we'll be ahead/suck out enough to call?

idk man, but after dude cold 3bet shoves a flop that dry i'm not liking our hand at all.

Wuwei and Wiggs,
My bad
foldo. Didn't see the 3 bet was cold. Timing/stats could make it a call. That being said unless I was raising to induce a shove in a HU pot I would almost always call the flop when led into.

In general, I agree with you.

But I don't really like calling the flop either. Even though I respectfully admit all the responders agreeing with the flop call are more experienced and better players than me.

I just think if we're going to call a 3-bet preflop here without implied odds to hit a set from a guy that's 17/12/5 -- at a limit where those kind of numbers are indicative of very tight straightforward play -- we must be lagging it up enough to feel like he's able to play back at us very wide. Otherwise calling preflop doesn't make any sense even if it is BTN vs. blinds.

So if we feel like he's adjusted enough to us here that calling the 3-bet preflop is correct because of how lag we've been, then we just flopped one of the best flops for our hands. He's also probably c-betting 100% of his 3-bet range on this flop.

I understand the concept of keeping him in here possibly giving him a chance to bluff with worse hands, but I think it needs to be balanced against giving free cards plus the fact that most turns and rivers are going to be scary and we might get bluffed off the best hand by the river. I guess if we're not going to let ourselves get bluffed off our hand we will also end up calling down and losing fairly often, sometimes after being sucked out on.

I guess I'm saying I have no idea how to play this situation probably because I'm not lag enough nor experienced enough at this point.

I agree 100% with these lines.

Devin,

A3 I'd get it in, I'm usually ahead and once in a while run into a set or AT. Sucks if he had TT tho, I'm not that good of a hand reader yet.

77 hand check the turn get to showdown. Bet obv a A, K, or Q turn card but a 4 doesn't change anything in our equity.

cha

AQ ai there is bad, I'd also usually call the flop as your hand gets easier to define on the turn. Vs stations and weak players I'd put the hurt on them on the flop tho.

JJ I would be interested in hearing wuwie's expanded comments but I'd get it in vs shorty's there most of the time.

devin linked me to this, the questions for the hand are:
1. is our hand any different then JJ or TT?
2. if so, how?
3. how would you play JJ or TT?
4. does it make sense to play 77 the same way?

In general it's alright to "randomize" your flop play (natural balancing) by calling down with TT (drawing the arbitrary line there) and folding worse (absolute value wise) ie., it's ok to fold to the cbet on the flop.
Getting to the turn, it's alright to bet-call and it's alright to check, Villain checking is clearly a good thing though.

edit: I suppose you could make a rare rare opponent specific read that bet fold the turn is the best play, but conditions would have to be perfect, and it's a nonstandard play that should never be anyone's standard, if you bet the turn, you're putting your stack in.

Bobbo, is a 17/12/5 the type of guy you should really be calling a 3 bet with 77. If it is shouldn't betting the turn be mandatory since we'll want to fold out hands like T9 that would probably check turn and hope to god you check behind.

I don't have much to say except that we have a good hand getting strong pot odds against a couple of shorties playing their hands in an odd manner, so I get it in there *all* of the time.

Me either right now. I ran worse than I ever have for such a short period of time last night that I'm reaching to find the leaks.

This was one of the leaks. Thanks to you all others who replied. I think this one fits into the category Microbet mentioned the other day in the **** thread - spew ~50 BBs here and you go from being a 5BB/100 player to a break even player over a 500 hand sample.

When you start going insane from never getting paid when you have an actual hand and getting coolered and bad beat a bunch of times, you see a hand like the AQ and think its great for a second, then right after you push the button you say to yourself, wtf am I doing. Stopping playing before that happens would help the win rate a lot.

Hey Bobbo - good to see you here. I hope this wasn't just a one time appearance

I turbofistpumpshove hands like that every chance I get. Apparently I needed some reassurance after the way I ran last night.

Hey Bobbo,
1/2. Is pretty easy.Yes because we lose to 9x 8x 1010 and JJ. We have less equity vs QJ, J10, 10xhh etc.
3. I would probably flat the flop and reevaluate the turn but would shove on a bunch of people as well (and I think JJ is still different from 1010 in this spot)
4. Hell no it doesn't make sense to play 77 the same since they have very different value/equity.

Inya, he's a 17/12 - my point is how many 9x or 8x things can he even have? not many. we're behind sets regardless, so it's really a slim equity advantage (certainly having TT IS better then 77 here!).
I also think it's barely a difference between TT and JJ, if getting it in is correct w/ one, 98% of the time it will be correct with the other. (and if it's not correct with one, 98% of the time it's not correct with both).
I think your line w/ JJ/TT is fine.
I don't fully agree, I think a strong argument could be made for lumping them together.

oh, ok, nm. haha. I was like wtf but misread your post(s).

I'm a little lost so forgive me Bobbo and Inya.

Bobbo, are you saying that equity wise in this spot 77 is similar to TT and JJ?

villain is 46/7/1.8

Thoughts on this non-standard hand?

Party Poker $400 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked

BB: $396.00
UTG: $611.50
MP: $544.68
CO: $370.50
Hero (BTN): $411.10
SB: $92.18

Pre Flop: Hero is BTN with Q 2
2 folds, CO checks, Hero raises to $20, 1 fold, BB calls $16, CO calls $20

Flop: ($62.00) K A 8 (3 players)
BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets $54, BB folds, CO calls $54

Turn: ($170.00) 3 (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $54, CO calls $54

River: ($278.00) T (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $241

Well I don't hate the c bet but I certainly don't like it very much. The turn is horrible why are we betting less than 1/3rd the pot at a card that doesn't change the board at all. This doesn't fold out draws or pairs. Villain has stats of a passive fish I just don't see why we are 3 barreling with air here. Give up on turn?

Is this possibly 56 level thinking that we get a draw to put in money then take it away on the river when it bricks off?

Devin's 77 hand

What if we check behind and then he pots river (various river cards)?

I had a similar hand last night. It checked through the turn. The river was an 8 and villian potted. (my villain was more like 28/14)

Maybe would could change the name of this thread to "STTF->Cash + BobboFitos".

well, I bet the flop because that flop hits my range a lot harder than someone that posted oop and called my raise. So, basically my plan for the hand is to give up or three barrel. I don't like 2 barreling here with out three barreling.

However, with stack sizes, I can't just pot pot pot...cause river will be like 1/4th pot or something. Also, I don't think he folds much to my bet/check/bet line either. So, cause I really wanted to 3 barrel and felt he never really has a hand that can withstand a three barrel, I bet an amount on the turn that setup a nice river size shove.

That's my thought process anyway. Flame away.

yep. Villain is 17/12. For the most part anything he is value-betting is beating TT/JJ a very similar % of the time as it is beating 77, since 98, T9, etc. are not really in his 3-betting range most of the time, and he is definitely not going to be value shoving them here all the time since it would be suicide to do so with his image.