STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2

[cakewalk]

2/3/5. 600 effective
I limp ATs UTG. 4 ppl limp after me, BTN (just sat down, don't know much about him) raises to 35. Folds to SB (youngish kid, didn't buyin full, is running hotter than jesus and openly talking strategy, he is half clueless and he's still stacking chips from last hand) thinks for a second and calls. I call and everyone else folds. Not sure about PF, I was expecting others to call.

Pot: ~105. flop AT8ss. SB checks, I check, BTN checks.

Turn Qd. SB checks, I bet 75, BTN folds, SB thinks for a second, asks if it's 75 and throws out 2 100 chips. Thoughts?

[cakewalk]

CQ, don't like cbetting, hate barreling that turn.

I do like bet bet c/r when draws miss on the river against vills that I think bet missed draws. Doesn't sound like this guy tho

[DevinLake]

Sexy spot for the limp/raise imo. I'd probably fold other wise. Hard to make ATs profitable with these effective stacks imo. although it's not bad given you probably were correct to assume there'd be calls behind a lot of the time.

As played, I dunno...looks like a fold. Although planning a c/r there is beyond dumb, but that doesn't discount anything.

[cakewalk]

LRR is so sexy but I don't think I've ever done it. Definitely gonna experiment

[NJD77]

What's sexy about a LRR? Nothing screams retarded more IMO. I lol whenever I see it. It's not like anyone ever balances it and wtf would you want to balance it with anyway.

[DevinLake]

Well, I'm not going to respond much to some one that calls my suggestion retarded and follows it up no explanation.

Why would anyone 3bet ATs? That's RETARDED.

[cakewalk]

Originally Posted by NJD77

What's sexy about a LRR? Nothing screams retarded more IMO. I lol whenever I see it. It's not like anyone ever balances it and wtf would you want to balance it with anyway.

I'm not good enough to know how to do it properly but if I were to add it to my arsenal a big part of the decision process would be looking for visual/behavioral information from villains as they look at their cards.

It's sexy because everyone thinks it's an awful move. Seemingly only fish do it. Your reaction exemplifies my point. We are entertaining the notion that there is value to the play, despite it violating all of our beliefs of how best to play poker.

[NJD77]

Sorry, that was me being a dick, please accept my apologies, I'm just feeling under the weather.

In regards to why I don't see any place for it:

1. It is not a good hand to bluff with, and it's not a hand we're ever value raising with when we LRR because if we get called, we're going to be dominated a lot of the time.

2. We're bloating a pot out of position with a hand that plays poorly out of position in 3b pots.

3. We're presumably trying to protect an open limping range by LRR'ing monsters and bluffs to protect our hands we want to play for value as a limp. I can't imagine any hands that I want to play for value but don't want to raise. Hence I don't see any requirement to either have an open limping range, or to want to protect it.

4. Even if we do want to protect an open limping range, it's incredibly hard to balance without becoming some sort of maniac who plays bloated pots out of position regularly, and is trying to balance monsters with bluffs. We'd just get straight up more value out of our monsters by open raising them in the first place.

I see very few benefits, and a whole lot of downsides. In regards to why I think it's retarded, it's because 99% of the time when I see guys do it with AA/KK and they chase out value from any half clued up villains, or they play a pot out of position with a completely face up range, and it's tards that I see doing it more often than not. I very rarely see any competent players doing it, because for the above reasons, I just don't see any reason to.

Once again, apologies for being a dick, I have a lot of time for you and didn't mean it to come off as ignorant as it did.

[DevinLake]

one night I stacked the same guy 4 or 5 times with the expert over-limp back raise move. The last time was 200bb deep KK>TT.

I assumed that no. 3 was probably your reasoning and I strongly disagree with it. It obviously depends on the make up of the table. Can you explain to me why raising or folding 33 UTG is better than limping it? Same with JTs? KQo, KJo/KJs, KTs, Axs, etc?

One of the awesome things about live low stakes game is that you can get away with limping hands that don't play that well as an UTG raise (depending on your image, the table) because of how little raising does go on. I'm not saying to lrr a lot, you need the right conditions. You can't have a game where no one will raise ip light, cause then you're 3betting into a super strong range. You also can't have a clue villain that is incapable of ever raise/folding.

A lot of your arguments are the same with regards to 3betting the SB.

I think saying some thing like your statement in no. 3 is pretty rigid. Every table is different. If you have a tight table that is only calling raises with a pretty tight range, then do you want to be raising your AJs, AQ, KQ, etc? Limping and letting them in with dominated hands, etc could be a better strategy. if you are playing at a very loose table, why do you want to raise 33 UTG and c/f almost every flop? Certainly folding it can't be better than limping...if it is, go home...your table sucks and you don't have an edge.

edit: I'm not even saying to do it for balance. **** balance in these games, it's not optimal. I'm saying it because no one does with it any thing but AA/KK and people fold a tonne (if you have picked your spot right)

[entim]

I wouldn't frequently want to put myself in spots where I limp /call in early position a lot,
if i'm limping early a lot, it's because I expect overlimps.
One of the biggest factors for your ranges should be whether you've been winning
or losing a few pots in a row.
The overlimp/backraise is very boss either way. Insta respect devin!!!
In live games I play, people don't fold preflop very much, so I don't see why setting
up a limp/reraising dynamic is good.

Actually, the main benefits I can see of a limp reraise, is that your opponents will
be less susceptible to isolating you preflop with hands they normally would, and
while QJ might previously have been unprofitable to limp with a few strong players
sitting behind, it's now become profitable in unraised pots.,
Two limp reraises in a row would enforce this really well. 2x anything to a live player
is a sample size.

[DevinLake]

Well, let me eloborate.

I do not limp usually with the intention of lrr. I usually limp because I think given the way the tables playing it's more +EV to limp rather than raise or fold it. It's 1/2 live, the games are very soft that I play in.

I will limp a bit utg, but not a lot. And I don't just lrr anytime someone raises. I will limp/fold a lot (because people don't raise enough). But, against certain villains that will iso raise a bit or are capable of folding AJ or AQ or something, then I will lrr.

It has nothing to with setting up a dynamic, balance, protecting limps, etc. These things are complete unnecessary in my game. It's just about me choosing what I believe to be the most +EV course of action at that specific time.

It something I only do once every 20-30 hours of play maybe, or less. I just thought in Ben's spot, it would be a place I might do it (depending on villain).

[crackedquads]

5/10 30bb game.

Hero has been at the table for less than 30 minutes, Ive took down maybe one tiny pot and am down $15, sitting at $285.

The table is fairly tighter than how this game generally runs. There's one bad player on my immediate right, one decent player two to my right, and the 6 players to my left are older nitty guys.

I have AKo in the sb.

4 limpers to me, inc both guys to my right. I make it $60. Sb (13 bbs) flats, bb (14 bbs) flats, and both guys to my right limp/call.

Flop(~$300): T32 rainbow. I open jam for $225.

Thoughts?

[NJD77]

Can't work out what position you are in because you say SB but then you also say SB flats.

Looks fine either way, when you're called on the flop you're going to have a decent chunk of equity most of the time.

[buffyslayer1]

I dont see what hands that beat you fold when you shove.

[buffyslayer1]

Also looks like ur 5 way, jamming would seem pretty spewy