STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2

[K䲰䮥n]

How'd you play this against a typical TAG with turn aggression something around 2.5?

[DevinLake]

Originally Posted by K䲰䮥n

How'd you play this against a typical TAG with turn aggression something around 2.5?

What are his flop tendencies?

[bengiec]

Originally Posted by bones

I think he's calling fairly wide. He's 4b me once before and I folded. His range is prob mid pairs, med strength aces, some broadway, etc. Wasn't super thrilled with the turn even with the fd and gutshot because i think it gives him pair+straight draw a decent amt and he's prob not too excited about folding those. But jamming makes it super hard for him to call off 1p hands without draws.

how can he be calling this flop fairly wide if you've done this to him frequently and he's folded every time ?

take the free card imo

[K䲰䮥n]

Originally Posted by DevinLake

What are his flop tendencies?

Typical Hero goes "uh oh the hand is on the turn so I guess he called the flop. what to do, god, what to do?!?". Now be god.

[DevinLake]

Originally Posted by K䲰䮥n

Typical Hero goes "uh oh the hand is on the turn so I guess he called the flop. what to do, god, what to do?!?". Now be god.

Against I typical tag I guess I probably shove over the turn raise and hope he floated with a backdoor fd or random air.

But wouldn't be near is a happy. On this board he's repping a set, and in the words of bobbofitos 'sets are hard to flop.'

Folding against a typical tag would be fine too. Really would just depend on my feel for our dynamic.

[bengiec]

Originally Posted by MadScientist

Peru, what you wrote above does not make sense. Either you have a 70% edge or you don't. Do you mean that sometimes you don't have a 70% edge? If that is the case, average over cases and determine your edge.
Like many SSNL players, you don't understand the concept of thin value or why it is important to seek thin value. Not puttin you down, just an observation.

i think what peru was trying to say is that when he's playing it's hard, as i would imagine it is for anyone, to KNOW that their edge is exactly 70%. the 50% he was talking about pertained to his confidence that he actually had a 70% edge. so he might actually have a much larger range for his edge, (30%-90%) based on his 50% confidence level. i hope this makes sense.

[Jbrochu]

Originally Posted by bengiec

i think what peru was trying to say is that when he's playing it's hard, as i would imagine it is for anyone, to KNOW that their edge is exactly 70%. the 50% he was talking about pertained to his confidence that he actually had a 70% edge. so he might actually have a much larger range for his edge, (30%-90%) based on his 50% confidence level. i hope this makes sense.

I Understand what you're saying, and I do believe that's what Peru was saying as well. However, I believe it just over-complicates things trying to think about it that way.

Your edge is solely made up from your estimate of villains range and how your hand does against it. I don't think it makes sense to put villain on a range, and then try to determine a confidence level because villains range might be wider or more narrow. If his range might be wider or more narrow, adjust accordingly when estimating his range.

Ha ha - now I don't know if I'm making any sense.

(I don't really like the word "edge" as it was used in the discussion but kept it to be consistent and avoid more confusion.)

[MadScientist]

There are better hands than 82s to 3b even in position, Q5s makes pairs and draws that are easier to play. You will often have the dominated draw with 82s, but most people 4b or fold AQ, AK so Q5 is dominating 78s for instance.

Here, I check behind. It looks like he is trapping.
Also, what are villains stats that made you think 3b 82s was good.
Basically why is 82s = A9? That is, why do you think he will rarely call your 3b?
If he calls 3b alot, I prefer broadway hands that make big pairs and dominate him.


SENCE, felt that QQ.

Originally Posted by bones

Villain is probably a little tired of me 3 betting him. I've done it several times IP across a few tables. He's c/f every time on big flops.

€0.5/€1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Khaalid (€280.31)
UTG+1 SuneBasun (€119.68)
CO Shark0505 (€98.00)
BTN Hero (€123.46)
SB NUQuattro (€116.06)
BB Boohaa (€175.90)

Pre-flop: (€1.50, 6 players) Hero is BTN 2 8
1 fold, SuneBasun raises to €4, 1 fold, Hero raises to €14, 2 folds, SuneBasun calls €10

Flop: A 9 J (€29.50, 2 players)
SuneBasun checks, Hero bets €21, SuneBasun calls €21

Turn: Q (€71.50, 2 players)
SuneBasun checks, Hero ?

[MadScientist]

Originally Posted by bengiec

i think what peru was trying to say is that when he's playing it's hard, as i would imagine it is for anyone, to KNOW that their edge is exactly 70%. the 50% he was talking about pertained to his confidence that he actually had a 70% edge. so he might actually have a much larger range for his edge, (30%-90%) based on his 50% confidence level. i hope this makes sense.

Ben, peru, jbrochu, thin value in part means wringing out all the profit you can out of the game, and yes, variance goes up then. However, this makes you harder to play against, which means others aren't picking on you, you are picking on their weaknesses.
It also widens your range in spots that will be heavily polarized.
Very often on the river, people will need the nuts to commit much money for value, but can justify a bluff with a wide range. Picking off their bluffs then becomes easy.
If however, they are betting a hand that sometimes is beating you, but sometimes is bluffing you off the better hand, bluff catching is no longer easy.
Remember that history with a given opponent will dictate ranges on the river.
Given a four flush board on the river, jamming a T can be for value or as a bluff or sometimes, both.

[Jbrochu]

MadSci - I agree thin value is extremely important. I don't think merging your range is all that valuable at lower buyins though, at least for the purpose of making yourself harder to play against. Sometimes you just end up value towning yourself.

Given a four flush board on the river, jamming a T can be for value or as a bluff or sometimes, both.

Not both at the same time though, right? I (sorta) understand the concept of two way bets on earlier streets, but isn't there no such thing as a two way bet on the river? I can't see how you could on the one hand expect worse to call, and on the other expect better to fold - in the same exact circumstance.

[Hirle]

I'm lurking ITT because I'm trying to play uNL cash games a bit (when don't feel like nitting it up and getting ****ed over by variance*). So...

From what I understand, no, no two way betting at the river, since the equity of all hands is clear and static. I really liked this article on this topic:

http://www.deucescracked.com/articles/583-Two-Way-Bets

*while I'm out of lurk, It seems to me that there's less variance in uNL (0,05/0,10) than in low limit ($5) SNGs, any truth to that or am I just lucky I keep meeting donks that give me their $20 stacks for free?

[xPeru]

IME much less variance at $10nl than low limit SNGs assuming you are tight. I've played c200k hands of $10nl early this year fwiw.

Very nice article, thanks for the link.

[dipstikdave]

mp is a 17/14 reg. co is loose passive, bb is lag. pf would squeezing or folding have been better? on the flop i don't have enough hands on co or bb to know their postflop tendencies, so i just called to see how the hand developed.


Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $51.40
BB: $40.65
UTG: $90.95
MP: $57.20
CO: $37.65
Hero (BTN): $50.00

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is BTN with Q 9
1 fold, MP raises to $2, CO calls $2, Hero calls $2, 1 fold, BB calls $1.50

Flop: ($8.25) 5 6 9 (4 players)
BB checks, MP checks, CO bets $2.50, Hero calls $2.50, BB calls $2.50, MP folds

Turn: ($15.75) 8 (3 players)
BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets $9.75, BB raises to $25, CO calls $25, Hero calls $15.25

River: ($90.75) 3 (3 players)
BB bets $11.15 all in, CO calls $8.15 all in, Hero calls $11.15

[xPeru]

I'd like to have a go at this one, just to find out why I'm wrong ....

I think calling is marginally better than squeezing, because you can make such powerful hands with Q9s, and if I hit, I want someone to go with me to the river - conversely, it is easy to get seduced by the marginal hands which also hit leading to catastrophic reverse implied odds situations. So if you are not confident playing marginal hands post-flop, the squeeze is probably better.

As played, I hate the flop call, it's such a nasty board, that I like to try to take it down straight away. At 50nl, I figure a set or overpair will reraise me. Double gutshots are more likely to call my raise. So a good raise not only gives you a chance of taking the pot down, but can give you some valuable information about villain. Here, BB could well be calling with A5s for example, and so calling just gives a chance for either scare cards, or cards that will kill any further action. If turn is an A, your hand just can't stand the heat, so you will probably have to give away a free card to any draws.

Nothing else springs to mind re turn and river as played. Although, I might equally well check call as bet call, depending on what I have on villain's turn tendencies (normally, squadooosh!)

[ChrisV]

Preflop I think fold, call and reraise are all ok and it depends a bit on your image. I would usually fold as I think the hand is worse than it looks.

I'd raise a small bet like that on the flop. While I think hand protection is in general overrated in NL, here your hand really needs protecting and there is also a strong possibility you are getting value out of worse (76, etc). Your raise looks pretty strong so if you are reraised you can fold the hand knowing you probably had almost no outs.

I hate the turn bet. You're completely turning your hand into a bluff. (If they have A9 or K9 then it could work out as it might be a successful bluff, but other than that it's going to be bad). Your opponents will routinely check and call two pair and BB might also be going for a retarded checkraise (as indeed he was). In general weak made hands - flush draw combos are bad choices for thin value bets.

I would also fold the river as I think you're like 1 in 100 at best to win this hand. In the rare event that BB checkraised without a good hand, he's not going to follow it up with a suicidal $11 bet into $90 after he's been called in two spots.