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Push with 17, 5 BB? Push with 17, 5 BB?

04-05-2017 , 10:51 AM
    Pacific, $9.10 Buy-in (75/150 blinds, 15 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 6 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37697207

    CO: 873 (5.8 bb)
    Hero (BTN): 2,630 (17.5 bb)
    SB: 725 (4.8 bb)
    BB: 3,184 (21.2 bb)
    UTG: 1,228 (8.2 bb)
    MP: 4,860 (32.4 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is BTN with T T :: ::
    UTG folds, MP raises to 765, CO folds, Hero raises to 2,615 and is all-in, 2 folds, MP calls 1,850

    Flop: (5,545) J 5 4 (2 players, 1 is all-in)
    Turn: (5,545) Q (2 players, 1 is all-in)
    River: (5,545) J (2 players, 1 is all-in)

    Spoiler:
    Results: 5,545 pot
    Final Board: J 5 4 Q J
    Hero showed T T :: :: and lost (-2,630 net)
    MP showed Q A :: :: and won 5,545 (2,915 net)



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    9max sng:
    I think he is almost never folding, when he raises 5x preflop. The only hands that i am ahead of are medium pocket pairs. And many flips, which are bad for me, so fold, am i right?
    Push with 17, 5 BB? Quote
    04-05-2017 , 06:34 PM
    Have you seen villain raise 5x before? What hands has he showed down like this? I think either way this is still a push unless you know he is 5xing QQ+ here. He could be making it 5x so all those short stacks get no fold equity and he's holding some weaker mid-pair. I saw a similar spot on a stream the other day - similar sizes, same size open open, shoving from the button was good down through 55 when we ran it through ICMizer.
    Push with 17, 5 BB? Quote
    04-07-2017 , 07:10 AM
    Let me first give a quick warning, I have not been playing SnG's for a very long time and am by no means an expert. but in my opinion this is a fold. Villains large raise means you are not getting the right odds to set-mine and so you can't really just call here. You can only really fold or shove, and when you look at the small stacks at the table who have already folded, i think you should probably be avoiding huge pots against someone who has you covered with a hand like TT, particularly when you feel Villain is never folding. as you said a lot of time you will be flipping and sometimes you will be dominated. you will sometimes run into lower pairs but i feel like you are risking your entire tournament life to less than double your tournament equity. Unless you had a read that Villain was Aggro and was often getting out of line, I would sigh-fold and hope some of the small stacks bust out soon.
    Push with 17, 5 BB? Quote
    04-13-2017 , 03:37 PM
    We have only a fifth of the chips in play, this isn't a spot where we can fold into the money.

    HRC gives this (also down to 77) as a jam and ICM tends to overvalue mid-stacks, so I'm pretty confident that's fine. Crucially, it gave villain's calling range against our jam as 99+, AJs+, AQo - so it's hard for villain to change that in a way that seriously hurts us.
    Push with 17, 5 BB? Quote
    04-14-2017 , 01:40 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LektorAJ
    ICM tends to overvalue mid-stacks
    Can you show me the evidence for this, I see that kind of thing posted all the time but don't know the reasons behind it
    Push with 17, 5 BB? Quote
    04-14-2017 , 07:07 AM
    Same here Im not and expert but imo you should just call or fold I explain why because
    1.I think you should not risk your all tournament or stack with just and pocket T
    2.He bets real strong Preflop its 5BB without no one limped before flop.
    3.You have short stacker on sb who can easily call also your shove and then you have to beat 2 opponents with only pocket TT
    I think it depends on villian if hes loose/agressive i prolly just call to setmine and if miss easily fold hand but if hes Tight/agros its easy fold because that kind a raise in EP repesents strong hand like any Ace/high or premium pockets.
    Push with 17, 5 BB? Quote
    04-14-2017 , 01:32 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Adgey
    Can you show me the evidence for this, I see that kind of thing posted all the time but don't know the reasons behind it
    Hard evidence is difficult when we can't simulate to the end of the tournament - but the basic idea is that we give up these small bits of value by playing "too" tight to preserve our stack and not go out before the short stacks - and it's not just this hand, it's all the future hands too. So we should include the forced future giving up of value in the present value of a mid stack (actually in the value of any stack, but it's particularly the midstacks who give up the most value to other players).

    If you want something like evidence compare a few hands under both chip EV and under ICM and compare who is getting extra/fewer walks in the BB, who is getting their jams through much more rather than just a bit more, who is forced to fold much more rather than just a bit more - and you will see who is leaking value.
    Push with 17, 5 BB? Quote
    04-14-2017 , 07:06 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LektorAJ
    We have only a fifth of the chips in play, this isn't a spot where we can fold into the money.

    HRC gives this (also down to 77) as a jam and ICM tends to overvalue mid-stacks, so I'm pretty confident that's fine. Crucially, it gave villain's calling range against our jam as 99+, AJs+, AQo - so it's hard for villain to change that in a way that seriously hurts us.
    this is so player dependent, especially at the $9 level. if the three short stacks (all less than 10x BB) have been passive over the past several hands i can totally see a fold here. i'm guessing BS isn't going to fold any hand with an A, pair, or even a face here.

    i'm more willing to bet on my ability to exploit those short stacks on the bubble (likely passive, and more likely to make bad decisions) than to push into a PFR from the BS in this situation.
    Push with 17, 5 BB? Quote
    04-15-2017 , 02:41 AM
    It would be very rare I will fold TT with 17bb in a single raises pot. I'm shoving this 99% of the time.
    Push with 17, 5 BB? Quote
    04-15-2017 , 04:36 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Colinb7
    It would be very rare I will fold TT with 17bb in a single raises pot. I'm shoving this 99% of the time.
    Even if it`s bubble game?
    My question is witch one is more profitable in long term, shove medium pockets in the bubble or just fold and let short stackers beat each one out ?
    Push with 17, 5 BB? Quote
    04-15-2017 , 06:04 AM
    Depends on bubble dynamics. But usually yeah I'll shove on bubble...
    Push with 17, 5 BB? Quote
    04-15-2017 , 07:10 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by REDeYeS88
    this is so player dependent, especially at the $9 level. if the three short stacks (all less than 10x BB) have been passive over the past several hands i can totally see a fold here. i'm guessing BS isn't going to fold any hand with an A, pair, or even a face here.

    i'm more willing to bet on my ability to exploit those short stacks on the bubble (likely passive, and more likely to make bad decisions) than to push into a PFR from the BS in this situation.
    If we fold this then by the time two more people are eliminated we will have blinded off enough to be one of the short stacks ourselves. Short-stacks have to either double up or bust before we get to the bubble.
    Push with 17, 5 BB? Quote

          
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