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Playing QQ near the bubble in shovefest Playing QQ near the bubble in shovefest

08-12-2014 , 05:22 PM
Recently found myself in a situation that comes up fairly often, late in a STT....6 players remaining. Blinds at 150/300. Someone is taking a shot at the blinds/limpers just about every hand at this point.

My stack is around 2800 and it folds to me in the cutoff with QQ. The button and blinds are between 2200 and 3600.

My question: is it preferable to limp or min-raise to induce a shove from any A or two broadways, or shove to take down the blinds?

Better to go for the safe +600 (25 antes) or try for the double up and risk a showdown?

My thinking (without any ICM calculation) is that with 6 players, its worthwhile to go for the double up with QQ, since I'll have to weather more hands to reach the money, but with 4 a shove would be better.....
Playing QQ near the bubble in shovefest Quote
08-12-2014 , 05:36 PM
I would defo min raise this all day
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08-12-2014 , 06:00 PM
6 players remaining is not really near the bubble. Just min raise or raise the same amount you been raising all tourney with.
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08-12-2014 , 07:57 PM
Minraise and limp are both fine here. If they are playing much wider ranges vs the limp (especially if they are shoving many of these hands) I would prefer that route
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08-12-2014 , 10:41 PM
Depends some on your opponents. Minraise for sure if you think that there is any chance that this would induce a shove. If you feel that several of the players will note your minraise and discount the top of your 9 BB shove range then maybe shove to balance. Mostly I would think that minraise here is the best play.
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08-13-2014 , 03:20 AM
Limping looks too obvious unless you are playing morons. If you are playing good players min-raise.
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08-13-2014 , 10:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItchingAgain
Limping looks too obvious unless you are playing morons. If you are playing good players min-raise.
Yeah, esp if they have hud stat that are filter to late game. No reg limps unless it's AA or misclick. Mini raise or shove it depending on players.
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08-14-2014 , 11:48 AM
I think a min raise on that stack size looks just as obvious as a limp on that stack size. If it's been a shove fest, then why not shove? You're going to look a lot weaker shoving and may get looked up more lightly especially at a low stakes game. What was the buy in here? As mentioned this is definitely opponent specific but given your description of the game I'd just shove.
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08-14-2014 , 01:59 PM
^^^ agree, the min raises i see regs make are so unbalanced. its AA, KK, QQ at stack depths under 10bb every time, especially if it's through a few people and that point is a bit moot, if they min raise even from button at 10bb its the nuts
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08-14-2014 , 03:09 PM
Just because you pay attention doesn't mean everybody else does. If there are a bunch of aggrotards behind you waiting for a chance to ship it, openshoving premiums is a major mistake.

As long as you realize yourself its exploitable, it's perfectly ok to have an unbalanced range.

Last edited by Viral25; 08-14-2014 at 03:11 PM. Reason: Agrotard or aggrotard? I cant even spell correctly when I make up words myself.
Playing QQ near the bubble in shovefest Quote
08-14-2014 , 03:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viral25
Just because you pay attention doesn't mean everybody else does. If there are a bunch of aggrotards behind you waiting for a chance to ship it, openshoving premiums is a major mistake.

As long as you realize yourself its exploitable, it's perfectly ok to have an unbalanced range.
Yes, IF those opponents are overly aggressive and like to reshove a lot then sure, min raise all day.
Playing QQ near the bubble in shovefest Quote
08-14-2014 , 03:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItchingAgain
Limping looks too obvious unless you are playing morons. If you are playing good players min-raise.
This
Playing QQ near the bubble in shovefest Quote
08-14-2014 , 03:57 PM
I know it's a completely elementary play, but if you're playing with complete morons, I don't think limp shoving is out of the question. Especially with the kamikaze like shoving that is known to happen in these STT's.
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08-14-2014 , 10:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snatch Adams
This
You don't think good players can see through a min raise on that stack size?

The advantage to shoving on that stack size is that both good and bad players are smart enough to see it as a move that probably prefers not to get called. You're much more likely to get looked up lighter by shoving.
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08-14-2014 , 11:13 PM
So many fi's itt
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08-14-2014 , 11:35 PM
Highly depends on a field and buy-in. With a somewhat reasonable field/$10+ STT - shove. If its an under $5 tourney and/or you are playing with ******s - limp.
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08-15-2014 , 02:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by banderberg
You don't think good players can see through a min raise on that stack size?

The advantage to shoving on that stack size is that both good and bad players are smart enough to see it as a move that probably prefers not to get called. You're much more likely to get looked up lighter by shoving.
No, of course any player with half a brain can see that. I was just saying, limping could induce an inexperienced player to over play hands that are easily dominated by QQ. I.e. AT, AJ, KQ, AQ, JJ, or any other hands that may be in the top of their range. I definitely understand the open shoving thing too. I guess it depends on the table dynamic.
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08-15-2014 , 04:29 AM
You'd want to go all-in because you should be going all-in with much worse hands and QQ will get plenty of action when people see you are active. If you haven't been active then still jam it because what if you get KK next hand the point still stands :P
You could have a raise folding range with unsuited ace rag but only against either extremely tight opponents or very occasionally against thinking opponents.

I dont think you get even the worst of opponents to spew against a 9bb minraise compared to having a badly constructed range or getting complacent, people may cop on to the fact you shove mid pairs dont minraise bluff and minraise your best cards so you could achieve the opposite desired effect
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08-15-2014 , 05:20 AM
^ spot on.

If you're min-raising here, what does your min-raising range look like? If you're shoving here, what does your shoving range look like?

It's pretty hard to build a well constructed min-raise range at 9bb w antes 3 spots from the money.
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08-15-2014 , 01:56 PM
not too sure about min-raise unless specific reads on opponents. Also postflop playability should be considered. Are you comfortable playing versus possible donk bettors or flops with an ace or a king?
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08-15-2014 , 01:58 PM
Not too sure about min-raise unless specific reads on opponents. Also postflop playability should be considered. Are you comfortable playing versus possible donk bettors or flops with an ace or a king?
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08-15-2014 , 03:03 PM
As has been said, this has to depend on our opponents,

BUT...... assuming they're not morons we need to shove this for several reasons;

- if we limp/min raise, what are we representing? We would need to blend this play with hands we could genuinely limp, and at 9bb's there are none

- if it's been a shove fest, then that hides our strength anyway

- if its called and people see the QQ, it will buy a bit of credit for your weaker shoves later

- by limping you're trying to induce a shove over, do you think the shove over range is much different to the calling a shove range? With <10bb's and it being a 'shove fest' any ace, pairs and 2bways etc can all justify calling the shove anyway.
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08-16-2014 , 05:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snatch Adams
No, of course any player with half a brain can see that. I was just saying, limping could induce an inexperienced player to over play hands that are easily dominated by QQ. I.e. AT, AJ, KQ, AQ, JJ, or any other hands that may be in the top of their range. I definitely understand the open shoving thing too. I guess it depends on the table dynamic.
like any fish (?reg) is going to fold AJ+ 77+ vs a shove, no way
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09-08-2014 , 05:22 PM
I think it's strongly dependent on image and dynamic of the table. That's probably the important aspect of choosing between either play. I like both and implement both when I am playing in STT's.
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