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STT Strategy Discussion about the play of single table tournaments.

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Old 11-26-2014, 03:35 PM   #1251
fozzy71
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Re: ***Official HEM Red Line Discussion Thread***

Quote:
Originally Posted by am_man View Post
Feel free to test it yourself. It's the reason I have to use both hem2 and pt4. Prefer hem hud but then use pt4 for checking results and reports.
Which site? Have you emailed hh/ts files to HM support? This does not sound familiar to me so if it has been reported it hasn't been reported often/recently and I don't see any open or closed tickets for it.
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Old 11-26-2014, 11:56 PM   #1252
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Re: ***Official HEM Red Line Discussion Thread***

888 which was the site the OP was talking about. Last time I contacted hem about it was May 2013. I went through my email and found the ticket number as HMONE-154. The problem has existed since hem1, and carried over to hem2. My last correspondence with them regarding the issue was letting them know that it still exists in hem2 and asked to be put in the mailing list for that ticket number.

After that point, I just stopped caring since pt4 interface is much easier to use anyways, and I can still use the hem hud without any problems. Also, it's not the worst thing in the world for my opponents who are unaware of the issue to think they are running very bad, when that isn't the case.
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Old 11-27-2014, 10:20 AM   #1253
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Re: ***Official HEM Red Line Discussion Thread***

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Originally Posted by am_man View Post
888 which was the site the OP was talking about. Last time I contacted hem about it was May 2013. I went through my email and found the ticket number as HMONE-154. The problem has existed since hem1, and carried over to hem2. My last correspondence with them regarding the issue was letting them know that it still exists in hem2 and asked to be put in the mailing list for that ticket number.

After that point, I just stopped caring since pt4 interface is much easier to use anyways, and I can still use the hem hud without any problems. Also, it's not the worst thing in the world for my opponents who are unaware of the issue to think they are running very bad, when that isn't the case.
thx, it looks like I asked our testers to test it and write it up for HM2 if they could dupe it but that never happened. I will bump it with our QA/Testing Manager. This is Pacific specific AFAICT and shouldn't affect other sites.
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Old 06-18-2015, 03:36 PM   #1254
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Re: ***Official HEM Red Line Discussion Thread***

I hope it is okay I ask my question in this thread, since it hasn't been active in a long time, but is regarding $EV of HM.

So, I noticed something weird. I think I have a pretty good understanding of the way HM calculate $EV. But apparently it is possible to have a negative $EV for a certain tournament. So, according to HM, I should have lost even more money than the buy-in. Let me elaborate:

For example, it is the bubble and I am down to 500 chips, and haven't been all-in yet (hence, $EV is neutral). I push KK, get called by AA but I catch a K and win the pot. Now HM calculates that I got more $EV than I 'should' have gotten, so there is a - in $EV diff. Next hand I go allin on the river, lose and bust out of the tournament. HM now says my winnings are $0.00, net winnings $3.50 and $EV -$0.50 for example. Isn't it weird that this isn't 0, since you can never lose more than you bought in for?

I'm probably looking over something, can someone explain this?

Cheers
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Old 06-19-2015, 04:35 PM   #1255
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Re: ***Official HEM Red Line Discussion Thread***

You can also win more EV than first place. Super standard.
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Old 06-19-2015, 10:51 PM   #1256
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Re: ***Official HEM Red Line Discussion Thread***

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Originally Posted by Twice. View Post
Isn't it weird that this isn't 0, since you can never lose more than you bought in for?
An example of losing more ev than the buyin look like this

Start of a 9 max tournament
You go all in on the flop as an 50:1 underdog and double up.

All-in ev: about -1 buyin

Later you go all in on the flop with as an 50:1 underdog and double up again.

All-in ev: about -1.8 buyin

Now you have 4x starting stack but you somehow blind out and bubbled

Winning: 0
Total all-in ev: -1 buyin-1.8 buyin = -2.8buyin
All-in adjusted winning: 0-2.8buyin = -2.8buyin

The interpretation is: You get 2.8 buyin worth of "Luck" but still did not managed to win any money. Of cause you can't lose more then your buyin but you can win/lose more than 1 buyin of luck.

This usually happens when you suck out a few times and still bubbles.
On the other hand you can bubble and win more than first place prize in EV. This happens when the micro stack won't die at the bubble and win 5 flips in a row, then you bubbled.

Last edited by mtgalex; 06-19-2015 at 11:05 PM.
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Old 06-20-2015, 01:48 PM   #1257
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Re: ***Official HEM Red Line Discussion Thread***

okay thanks for the answers!
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Old 06-20-2015, 04:27 PM   #1258
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Re: ***Official HEM Red Line Discussion Thread***

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Originally Posted by mtgalex View Post
On the other hand you can bubble and win more than first place prize in EV. This happens when the micro stack won't die at the bubble and win 5 flips in a row, then you bubbled.
That and HU when youre taking down most pots without showing down, and then losing as a favorite to build them back up. Moreso in 6m because of the gap between 2nd and first.
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Old 08-24-2015, 12:27 PM   #1259
tchernobyl
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variance

[IMG][/IMG]


this is my graph. I noticed that the last 1k sit n gos , the overlay adjusted is not like the first part . I didn t change the way I play. is that the variance ?
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Old 08-24-2015, 03:51 PM   #1260
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Re: variance

So three things:

1) 1k games is for sure a small sample over which a winning player can have a downswing
2) "I didn't change the way I play" - I think I know what you mean but in reality most of us who are serious about the game are always looking for ways to improve - the reality is sometimes our adjustments work well and sometimes they don't. So just wanted to check the validity of that statement
3) I would be interested in knowing what buy-in you are playing because if it is the $1.50's, my quick calculation of your adjusted roi is about 1% - which then I would say the bigger question is how you can improve that. Even if your adjusted line continued to increase and ended up at $160 for your graph, your adjusted roi would be about 2%. I don't have a great sense of how high of an roi you can expect at your games, but I would think you could improve from 1-2% - post hand histories, ask questions, etc etc

Just my honest thoughts.
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Old 08-24-2015, 04:27 PM   #1261
Colinb7
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Red line variance

Sample of 1.4k tourneys. ROI = -2.7%. EVROI = 4.0%

My questions is really whether or not I have a style of play that means I am too risky in bubble spots? I know $EV does take bubble into account.

Am I worrying for nothing and just assume it will turn around at some point?
Is the redline more reliable than actual win line?
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Old 08-24-2015, 05:37 PM   #1262
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Re: ***Official HEM Red Line Discussion Thread***

Playing a style with the highest ev will have the lowest variance.
The red line is not perfect, but it will "converge" faster than results as it takes one type of variance out of the picture, ie get all in with 50% eq, and get 0% of the pot.
Any short stack format will have a great deal of variance based on card distribution.
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Old 10-02-2015, 05:05 PM   #1263
TAasimA
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6 max hyper turbo variance chip ev/$chipev

Hello all,
I play the 6 max hypers anywhere from 16-22 tables at a time. Typically around 18.
I play near enough full time putting in 40-50 hours a week on average soon to go up to 60 when i go for Nova at the 3.5s this year.

Over a 20-25k sample i had a near 2% roi playing a very solid aggressive game with minor concepts of icm
I have done some icm review and study and improved my game in a lot of spots I was leaking.

One question I have is regarding $chipev and chipev.
I have gone through maybe 6 straight sessions of losing 30 buyins. Now I have had this sort of variance due to the style I have played in the past, and Ive played through it no problem.

What ive noticed is my Net won chips is typically around -10/20k chips maybe even more after a 3-4 hour block. but my chip ev won is around 10/30k+ and $ev is around 40$. both chip ev and $ev are positive but my net chips and winnings have been negative. Obviously ev bb/100 is around positive/negative but i find its often skewed with tighter play at earlier bb levels.
Im not sure how to interpret this is it simply just variance or if I'm playing badly. I dont tend to burn money at all really in terms of tilting.


Also is chip ev or $ev an indicator of run bad at all in hyper stts for future ref and review

Thanks for any help,
Aasim

Last edited by TAasimA; 10-02-2015 at 05:06 PM. Reason: extra info
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Old 10-02-2015, 07:24 PM   #1264
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Re: 6 max hyper turbo variance chip ev/$chipev

"I have gone through maybe 6 straight sessions of losing 30 buy-ins"

How many games is this and how many buy-ins have you lost altogether ?
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Old 10-03-2015, 02:32 AM   #1265
Colin252
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Re: 6 max hyper turbo variance chip ev/$chipev

The stats won't tell you much, post hands, get feedback on spots, that's how you'll figure out if/where you're leaking.
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Old 10-03-2015, 04:16 AM   #1266
TAasimA
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Re: 6 max hyper turbo variance chip ev/$chipev

Around 150 buy ins down this last week. Like I said my chip EV and $chipev is positive.
Im playing the same solid game I always play.

The question isnt really the resteal spots and hand analysis and leaking.
The main question is does chip ev and $chip ev have any correspondance with long term win rate and variance.
As both have been positive in my losing sessions.

Thanks in advance
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Old 10-03-2015, 04:58 AM   #1267
Colin252
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Re: 6 max hyper turbo variance chip ev/$chipev

Define $chip ev.
Chip ev can be very misleading because ICm means you can make a lot of plays which win chips but lose tournament equity.
$ chip ev?? Not sure exactly what you mean. Ev roi is a good metric as it will become accurate before results do. If your ev roi is good over a good sample then don't sweat it, just variance.
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Old 10-03-2015, 05:34 AM   #1268
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Re: 6 max hyper turbo variance chip ev/$chipev

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAasimA View Post
Around 150 buy ins down this last week. Like I said my chip EV and $chipev is positive.
Im playing the same solid game I always play.

The question isnt really the resteal spots and hand analysis and leaking.
The main question is does chip ev and $chip ev have any correspondance with long term win rate and variance.
As both have been positive in my losing sessions.

Thanks in advance

It's good to have a +ev obv. You can check roughly how good you are by comparing yours to other players who win and seeing what their ROI is.

I have plugged your figures into a variance calculator and whilst it is possible that it is just variance it is unlikely with those sort of results. I would say that your 2% ROI run was above expectation and that your long term ROI is 1% or maybe even less than that.

As other posters have said the solution is to improve your game and that involves concentrating on your play in individual hands. Higher ROI means less variance !
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Old 10-03-2015, 09:19 AM   #1269
TAasimA
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Re: 6 max hyper turbo variance chip ev/$chipev

This is where I struggle. Again I played today with ICM reviewed the small session of around 200 games. My ICM was pretty solid.
I think at the moment I struggle with calling ranges when I am the medium stack and I get shoved on by the small stack from button and its like 250 or I have effectively 400 behind 3 handed at around t 150. What typical ranges would be a call here, as I'm sat with things like j6s, k3o and unsure.

Again I dropped buy ins today my $ev and my chip ev in hm2 is +13k and $16.10
So I'm at a hold with hypers today. I am playing sessions and consistently seeing negative graphs.

How can I determine my EV ROI? I'm using HM2 and im looking for signs to show either I'm running bad or I'm playing incorrectly, and all I have in terms of figures off each session is typically a negative EV bb/100(Play tighter early stages so thats guaranteed with a lot of fold to steals with junk.
Then the $EV Diff as a positive dollar amount
Then Chip EV being positive always

Yes I agree I was probably running very hot at 2% as my understanding of icm was marginal and I was shoving too liberally from sb and button.
Tightening my ranges slightly but I still need to understand at what point I can shove ATC Aside from when big stack on bubble vs two medium stacks.

My playstyle is 18-20 multitabling so I tend to use a strategy where I can be breakeven at worst vs regs and win vs fish.

Also does chip ev or $ev diff have any correspondance with winrate?

Much appreciated thank you for the help

Aasim
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Old 10-03-2015, 01:46 PM   #1270
SmallPeePee
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Re: 6 max hyper turbo variance chip ev/$chipev

Imo drop to 12-14 tables mark every hand that u are not sure in tracker and after session check it in hrc/icmizmer

Do it for few days ur confidence in game will get much higher

gl bro and keep fighting
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Old 10-04-2015, 06:02 AM   #1271
TAasimA
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Re: 6 max hyper turbo variance chip ev/$chipev

Appreciate the help everyone!
Subscribed to icmizer
Started doing session review dropped to 16 tables i get bored at less haha
But i started playing so much more solidly; my main leaks were pushing wayyyy too wide otb vs fish and regs, like jrag 10rag at these stakes.
Made like 30 buys in 1 hour, ev was positive and honestly best session I played!!

Confidence is up and now I can check spots on icmizer which I think is what I was messing up with

Will keep everyone updated once i hit 50k count end of this month!

-AasimA
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Old 10-05-2015, 11:46 AM   #1272
SmallPeePee
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Re: 6 max hyper turbo variance chip ev/$chipev

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAasimA View Post
Appreciate the help everyone!
Subscribed to icmizer
Started doing session review dropped to 16 tables i get bored at less haha
But i started playing so much more solidly; my main leaks were pushing wayyyy too wide otb vs fish and regs, like jrag 10rag at these stakes.
Made like 30 buys in 1 hour, ev was positive and honestly best session I played!!

Confidence is up and now I can check spots on icmizer which I think is what I was messing up with

Will keep everyone updated once i hit 50k count end of this month!

-AasimA
Ive got pm for you so can you please turn on accepting private messages in ur profile ?
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Old 04-14-2016, 12:20 PM   #1273
jungmit
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Re: ***Official HEM Red Line Discussion Thread***

So what is the actual deal with red line? If it's downward sloping what does this tell me?
Thanks
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Old 05-12-2016, 07:24 PM   #1274
SayGN
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Re: ***Official HEM Red Line Discussion Thread***

TAasimA, sorry I'm a bit late to the party here. As far as the red line is concerned, the value you should focus on is $EV because that takes into account the ICM. Chip EV is just a standard ev measurement with no understanding of tournament structure. It works fine for cash games and winner take all tournaments, but doesn't mean much for sngs (for example, it's a positive chip ev move to call all your chips with 22 if you know your opponent has AK, but you're an idiot if you make that call on the first hand of a sng).

Losing 130 buy-ins is a lot, but in hyper turbo format it is totally within the realm of possibilities. If your $EV line is positive during that sample, then you are playing just fine, keep it up.
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