***Official HEM Red Line Discussion Thread***

[Max Cut]

Also, chip-EV does not use ICM. So you could have decent c-EV but still be committing ICM suicide, especially in DoNs. It will tell you if you are getting lucky/unlucky in those hands, but is a less reliable indicator of how you're playing (assuming ICM is a factor in the games).

I don't know what a proper sample would be for that, since I don't know what HEM is including in this "Races" thing. I would guess it to be in the tens or hundreds of thousands.

[SandmanNess]

Ok, has anyone noticed a problem with the EV line for HEM since the last update a couple of weeks ago. Since updating I experienced a very long stretch of BE redline, and when I recently investigated some of the games where it said I was losing equity, I found it was saying I was losing equity in games and hands where I should have actually been gaining equity or at worst breaking even. Any other 9 man regs' redline seem off since the update?

[jukofyork]

Originally Posted by SandmanNess

Ok, has anyone noticed a problem with the EV line for HEM since the last update a couple of weeks ago. Since updating I experienced a very long stretch of BE redline, and when I recently investigated some of the games where it said I was losing equity, I found it was saying I was losing equity in games and hands where I should have actually been gaining equity or at worst breaking even. Any other 9 man regs' redline seem off since the update?

Are you sure you aren't mixing up all-in EV with strategy EV? From what you wrote it sounds like it.

Juk

[SandmanNess]

Originally Posted by jukofyork

Are you sure you aren't mixing up all-in EV with strategy EV? From what you wrote it sounds like it.

Juk

No I mean I went in HEM and looked at the all-in $EV equity I would have for a hand and find that I was losing $EV in spots where I got it in good. And looking at games as a whole, it would say I would take first in a tournament for 62.50 and it would have my $EV for that tournament at -$4.50 which means I actually lost 20 dollars in EV on a first place finish. This is actually pretty hard to do so I went back for said game and looked at every all in spot for the tournament and found that there was no way I could have lost that much equity based on the All In showdowns I experienced.

[vookenmeister]

Post one hand from the tourney as an example to see?

[jukofyork]

Originally Posted by SandmanNess

No I mean I went in HEM and looked at the all-in $EV equity I would have for a hand and find that I was losing $EV in spots where I got it in good. And looking at games as a whole, it would say I would take first in a tournament for 62.50 and it would have my $EV for that tournament at -$4.50 which means I actually lost 20 dollars in EV on a first place finish. This is actually pretty hard to do so I went back for said game and looked at every all in spot for the tournament and found that there was no way I could have lost that much equity based on the All In showdowns I experienced.

You're not understanding what all-in EV is... Have a read of some of the posts above as you're about the 1000th person in this thread to have the same misconception and it's been explained numerous times already

Juk

EDIT: I'm assuming you are looking at the column called "$EV Diff" in HEM BTW - I apologize if HEM2 is showing something different (like actual $EV equity) as I'm still using HEM1.

[Rusemandingo]

but he got it in good

I thought i was wasting time checking my redline after every sess but picking through individual hands trying to disprove redline is just sick

[OMGBarackObama]

I noticed some shocking inconsistancies with the HM redline when I started playing HU hypers. One that sticks out was I got it in on the very first hand, on the turn, and my villain had 3 outs. He got there on the river. B/c I'm a results oriented sadist, I immediately refresh my graph for the day, and my green line (actual) drops one buyin, and my redline.... also drops, just a fraction of a buyin. This is immediately following getting all 1k chips in play in the center on the turn of the first hand with ~94% equity.

I hunted in the data view section of HM high and low afterwards but could not find a hand. anyone else notice when you click on a tourney in data view often several individual hands are missing? HM said there were "0 import errors" on the import tab, but an import error is the only logical explanation I can think of for both the hand being mia and the result on my graph which I am positive was refreshed immediately before and after this particular game which lasted exactly 1 hand.

I always used to be in the "red line is prob more accurate than results, but no where near accurate and just a good guideline for how your doing" school of though. Then some really bright SNG players I really respect swayed me with their "redline is the be all end all" school of thinking based on the fact that all the card distribution and post flop situations where the final $ goes in behind but it's irrelevant b/c the bulk when in on a street when you were ahead evens out over time. Eventually everything evens out of time, so redline is the be all end all.

Now I find myself in the middle and/or back where I started. I think redline is a good guide, and more accurate than results, but both redline and results "get more accurate over time" I definitely feel like my redline goes down sometimes when I can't fathom why. And after seeing the disparity I posted about earlier btwn HM1 and HM2 redliness, I have serious doubts about the accuracy. I'd love to know exactly how everything is calculated. It seems impossible that HM1 and HM2 could be different for the same sample. It makes NO sense to me. So yeah, redlines, take with grain of salt. Wiz hands and make sure you're making good plays vs the ranges you have your villains on. That's my advice. Gbucks baby, get the ched.

[Rusemandingo]

So you got even stack in on the turn as a 9 to 1 favorite and your redline went down?

[wayneking7]

sometimes HM takes 30sec-1min to update. I find the same thing happens to me when i get it in as a huge fav and immediately check the redline and see it goes down. then i refresh it again a min later and its corrected.

[OMGBarackObama]

Originally Posted by Rusemandingo

So you got even stack in on the turn as a 9 to 1 favorite and your redline went down?

That is correct. and I'm sure my graph was rereshed b4 and after that one game, where that happened on the first had.

I culd not however, find the HH after. HEM records HU SNGs that end in one hand strangely. It also get the speed wrong as it thinks its a reg speed.

[Regret$]

http://gametheoryinpractice.blogspot.com/

[wayneking7]

^ Nice post. Amazing how many people who just have no clue about how the redline works and what u can take from it

[Zadir]

At the lower stakes there are tons of bad players who do not understand icm and proper bubble play.As a result they often clash with each other and therefore spread the equity all over the place.As far as I understand if I just sit out in a 6max game and two big stacks clash busting each other I receive the equity and as a result HEM counts it as "lucky".It assumes that within the period of time it will even out as in theory I should spread the same amount of EV but I really doubt this is the case.
So the question would be is it possible to constantly run above red line in lower stakes games where the opposition is bad and you often receive "lucky" ev just by sitting out?

[vookenmeister]

Thx for the link. So HEM1's incorrect payouts for Merge DoNs as top 3 structures shouldn't mess up the red line just affect the variance prob making it higher. That makes sense to me.

Anybody successfully port their hands to HEM2? I've tried 3 times. Third try was mostly successfully but prob 5-10 percent of SNGs got altered in regards to buyins, number of players and other stuff.

It messed it up so bad that I'm not going To start using it to track my play till march 1st (basically start new). It does have a ton of useful stuff once I find time To check It out. I don't see a way to view Icm during replay yet so I don't know if they fixed the payout calc for DoNs. Ill get to it