***Official DoN Strategy Thread*** (Read OP)

[BillytheKidd]

Originally Posted by nolebeezy

Party Poker $40000.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

CO: $4100.00
BTN: $3290.00
Hero (SB): $1490.00
BB: $2410.00
UTG: $700.00
MP: $3010.00

Pre Flop: ($600.00) Hero is SB with Q Q
3 folds, BTN raises to $3250


Stars $10 turbos, call or fold?

BTN is a reg but not sure how good he is, UTG is pretty much unknown but not a mouthbreathing monkey.

Blinds are 200/400 if that isnt clear in HH.

FOLD - UTG is too short to risk busto, even tho you are way ahead of BTN range, the 20-40% of the time you lose this hand is more than the 80% of the time UTG bustoes.

Originally Posted by nolebeezy

Party Poker $15000.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BTN: $1085.00
SB: $4065.00
Hero (BB): $1310.00
UTG: $1345.00
MP: $1020.00
CO: $6175.00

Pre Flop: ($225.00) Hero is BB with A K
4 folds, SB raises to $300 Hero ??

Blinds 75/150

villain is 21/14 over 100ish hands, I guess if he folds ever then shoving cant be wrong, but I am not sure if he ever raise/folds to me with these stack sizes.

I min-raise/fold all the time with these stack sizes from SB because it takes alot of guts (imo) for BB to push back when 3 other stacks are feeling the same pressure, so I get alot of folds from BB and losing a few chips is irrelevant to me but losing 1/3 my stack aint happening. So as the BB in this hand, the other players are more important to me because I expect the SB to fold alot, however I will not push back if the other 3 shorties are trying to go broke. I think this is an important hand to understand from both perspectives.

Originally Posted by nolebeezy

Party Poker $40000.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG: $2860.00
MP: $2005.00
CO: $1490.00
BTN: $3375.00
SB: $3445.00
Hero (BB): $1825.00

Pre Flop: ($600.00) Hero is BB with T T
1 fold, MP raises to $1965, 3 folds Hero ??
Blinds 200/400, MP is probably not a good player.

FOLD and push next +EV chance, especially if MP is not a good player let someone else busto him or fall on the sword. You are 5th and I focus on pushing not calling when I am 5th. Granted, you will be in 6th after the hand, but just barely and there is still alot of play left at this blind level. Also, I like MP's raise sizing because he can fold if CO/BTN/SB/Hero all go crazy, and it happens...LOL This is a case where I might call if the CO had pushed, definately would if it were 300/600.

Originally Posted by nolebeezy

Party Poker $40000.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
Party Poker $25000.00 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

CO: $4375.00
BTN: $2755.00
Hero (SB): $1315.00
BB: $1785.00
UTG: $1410.00
UTG+1: $1795.00
MP: $1565.00

Pre Flop: ($375.00) Hero is SB with Q A
UTG raises to $1385, 4 folds Hero ??

Blinds 125/250, UTG is std. nitty reg.


As you can tell from these hands, I have trouble determining when to go ahead and call pf shoves whenever there are other players at the table with similar stack sizes that are fairly short.

I FOLD here as well, especially to nitty regs from UTG at this level as they always had AK/AA/KK/QQ when I called with AQ. There will be plenty of chances to push.

In general money is made in DoN's by pushing not calling. I prefer two others do battle because one will lose or be wounded while I sit on the sidelines cheering the battle on. Calling guarantees I will be a combatant, while pushing provides opportunities to win without a battle. At the bubble it seems the perfect scenario is FOLDorPUSH>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>call

There are of course times to call, but they are very situation dependant/somewhat counterintuitive. For example:
blinds: 300/600 60 ante 6 players

CO: $4375.00
BTN: $2755.00
Hero (SB): $415.00
BB: $385.00
UTG: $2610.00
UTG+1: $2195.00
MP: $2265.00
3 folds, CO calls, BTN calls, Hero???

In this extreme example, it is correct to call because BB is already all in, but we have him covered. I see people fold this all the time hoping for BB to bust, but if BB wins we only have 55 chips and are all in next hand etc. while BB jumps to 1575 chips. Might as well take a shot on ending it with a call versus having to survive with ATC the next few hands. I know this is an extreme example, but situations like this happen alot.

In general, I am more willing to call the other shortie IF my fold equity will be significantly reduced by allowing him to take down a pot. For example, when we both have about 1200 at 3/6 and shortie pushes into my BB. Folding cripples me, and calling heads up is generally my best shot at winning at least 20-40% of the time. Not the best odds but better than taking AA against 3-5 players.

[TruFloridaGator]

Please do not post about potential collusion until PS has concluded their investigation.

[Gallopin Gael]

Originally Posted by BillytheKidd

In this extreme example, it is correct to call because BB is already all in, but we have him covered. I see people fold this all the time hoping for BB to bust, but if BB wins we only have 55 chips and are all in next hand etc. while BB jumps to 1575 chips. Might as well take a shot on ending it with a call versus having to survive with ATC the next few hands. I know this is an extreme example, but situations like this happen alot.

I had this exact situation happen last night. I misread the situation and folded and would have ended the tourney with my pair of Kings. Ended busting a few hands later.

We don't have to win the hand, just increase the chance the the BB doesn't.

[BillytheKidd]

Originally Posted by Gallopin Gael

We don't have to win the hand, just increase the chance the the BB doesn't.

Exactly my point, in much fewer words...

[nolebeezy]

Ya, I did fold each of the hands except the AQ hand where I made a tilt call and knew it was wrong even after I saw his cards. Running bad/breakeven stretches tend to make me doubt some of my decisions in spots that are not that complicated.

[Goldenad]

Originally Posted by Quidnunc

Quidnunc

800 game breakeven stretches are not uncommon in these games, keep your head up, post questionable hands here for review, and you will see your quality of play increase even more

[Cry Me A River]

Originally Posted by Quidnunc

Why does it seems like having too many bad players somehow makes it more more difficult to win these. Seems like the big stacked fish turn the game into bingo.

Originally Posted by Flynn

Agree with you. While lots of bad players are good for non-dons, they make dons a crapshot. At least what I have seen at 500 5's and 10's telling me that. Too many idiotic calls on bbl, people seem like having no clue at all what is icm and how it works for dons.

Move up to where they respect your raises.

I have 12K games at the 10s and 10K games at the 20s and you guys couldn't be more wrong. If you think playing with bad players makes your life difficult, go ahead and play the 50s and 100s against tables full of solid regs. I'd give my left testicle to be able to play the 50s against tables full of 10s.

[sqwerty12]

Originally Posted by Cry Me A River

Move up to where they respect your raises.
.

Hey that's what I did and lo and behold they do !!

I was about 2% at 20.80's and now I'm 9% at 52's !

But seriously DoN's from $20 up are tough and require full concentration. Give me a table of fish anyday. I can't think of a better form of NLHE to exploit fish at than DoN's (well maybe HU but anyway....).

Whoever says they hate playing fish is likely a fish themselves. If you sharkscope the bubble in any 20.80 or 52 you will more often than not find that EVERY player is a winning player...which means the fish are getting fried alive in these things.

[sqwerty12]

Originally Posted by Flynn

Agree with you. While lots of bad players are good for non-dons, they make dons a crapshot. At least what I have seen at 500 5's and 10's telling me that. Too many idiotic calls on bbl, people seem like having no clue at all what is icm and how it works for dons.

if you think DoN's are a crapshoot then you must be playing them wrong. It's easy to avoid the crap because you're barely playing any hands.

[sqwerty12]

Originally Posted by Quidnunc

Not a BBV Post

After about 3000 games at the 5.20 and 1300 games at the 10.40s on Stars I am hanging it up, at least for a while. Of course I started out crushing, studied and practiced, reread this thread etc. and watched my results tank. Didn't think I needed a HUD for low stakes, seems like it would be pain in the arse. The $5-$10 players are notoriously unpredictable, and thought I would do just as well going with my notes and reads. Around game 800 I started paying more attention to timing the blinds, I'm sure to the irritation of many players, sorry folks. I thought I was really onto something, but no.

I made quick notes “n” for bad players. I knew if they had any note at all it meant they were probably calling light and just plain playing wrong. It made more sense to me to make notes only bad players, since they were easy to spot and dangerous in some cases; exploitable in others. Against average or good players I tried to play “normally”. Very bad players get 2 or 3 “n”s (or more depending on how cruel the beat they put on me was). I wish Stars had the color-coded deal like FT for doing this because it seemed to help. After a thousand or so games at least one or two players I marked as fish were at almost every table. I'm sure I marked more than a few wrongly for making plays I didn't understand. To my dismay, I have seen several of them some at the 50s-100s.

Typically, I will sit at a new table and check my notes, and see 2 or three “n”s, maybe an “nnn”, and the occasional note “kill this ************”.

So there are 5 fish at the table, (not including myself). One knocks out another, nine left. Later, 3 other fish give their chips to me and two other regs, yay! Now is the time of the bubble. The fish with the big stack doubles up the other fish. Then follows a cacophony of bombastic plays by the fishes and one of the guys I thought was good but now realize is not; and I make a note on him. I can't get a play in edgewise, because everyone is playing and I'm are card dead for 20 hands. Shorty gets better six times in a row,. A ray of sunshine, with AsQs! Push my 1280 into the BB reg with 2600. He calls with Ks8d. You make a note on him.


Quidnunc

too many notes....do you really need them? I don't even use the Hud for these things because i just know everyone generally plays ok at 20's and 50's and it's information overload if your running 12+ tables.

How many regs are using huds for DoN's or taking notes?

I do ok in them, even made a sharkscope leaderboard the other day but it all seems like too much work to be doing what you're doing.

Just concentrate on playing them right rather than focussing on everyone else because from what you're saying you're not even sure who's good or bad anyway.

[Cry Me A River]

Originally Posted by sqwerty12

Whoever says they hate playing fish is likely a fish themselves. If you sharkscope the bubble in any 20.80 or 52 you will more often than not find that EVERY player is a winning player...which means the fish are getting fried alive in these things.

Yeah, DoNs are such a fish magnetic because the fish feel so deceptively competitive. But the have no chance anything beyond the very short term unless they remain at stakes full of other fish.

Originally Posted by sqwerty12

if you think DoN's are a crapshoot then you must be playing them wrong. It's easy to avoid the crap because you're barely playing any hands.

+1

If they're calling you light then chances are they're calling everyone light. Which is very good for you if you can pick your spots and stay out of the way while they destroy each other.

I can't imagine playing DoNs without a HUD as that one guy posted - How would you decide your stealing ranges and who best to steal from unless you're only playing a couple tables?

[Quidnunc]

Originally Posted by nolebeezy

If you play with a HUD, it is pretty simple to identify the terrible fish who stack off way light. Once you know who they are the adjustment of not shoving light into them very often seems pretty obvious...?

Just like in every other form of poker, bad players make DoN's more profitable. Playing at tables with 7 regs that have the blinds regularly reaching the 300/600 level turn out to be much more of a crapshoot and cause alot more variance than playing with a bunch of morons that will stack off with jacks in the 15/30 level.

I knew this had to be right. The games may be getting tougher. Guess I'm feeling helplessness watching noobs win so often and watching too many beats. Should just look away after I push! When I'm running good beats are easy to ignore, not so much when your not.

Maybe BBV the could be reduced if I was a HUD master. The problems I have with HUD are:
I have enough to think about already multitabling, without a bunch more numbers dancing around in my head. More important to think about things like situational reads, table dynamics, and when the blinds go up, who they will hit, etc. Can the above average Joe really do all that on 12 tables?

Don't want to waste a lot of time on HUD and have it not help, not work, or make my game worse when I am doing OK now. Fear I will invest hundreds of hours in it, wating time I could use to improve my game in other ways, have it banned by Stars, have it freeze my tables. I don't like that its making poker more like playing against robots. It won't be there if I by some miracle I ever get to play live.

Cry Me A River -" Move up to where they respect your raises."

You mean the $20's I guess. Thats what I keep thinking would be nice, less craziness. But I'm sure my roi would have to go down unless I improve greatly, wouldn't it? BTW thanks Flynn for feeling me but I guess we both know CMAR is right.

I'm always wondering if I might improve by loosening up, just a wee bit, in the early rounds. More than what is more or less agreed upon as standard here. Doesn't seem like I'm missing out on much, though. Play sb and button for a hand or two more maybe? The advice I always heard was to tighten up most at the low stakes, is that 100% geometrically true? Is finding 70% plus EV spots harder or easier early, when everyone wants to play every hand? Guess I am looking for an easy way to improve without doing more maths.

I don't feel like playing 3000 games to see if changing my style is helpful, got to rely on the advice I get here.

Here is my $5 graph if anyone is interested (or even if your not, I know I like looking at others):

Only got one reply on my offer in the earlier post, put in in the staking forum and got one more. Guess there are not too many $1 DON 2+2ers which would make sense.

[sqwerty12]

I can't imagine playing DoNs without a HUD as that one guy posted - How would you decide your stealing ranges and who best to steal from unless you're only playing a couple tables?[/QUOTE]

That was me....yeah I've wondered about it. I have PT3 but I tend not to use the hud much because I tile 12 tables and there's just too many numbers everywhere. I've wondered if I would do better but I don't know.

AT 20's and 50's I play the same guys at just about every table every day and I know what they're doing and I presume they know what I'm doing.....afterall we're all playing pretty similar. Any new face I probably wouldn't have a meaningful sample of hands on anyway.

I guess I probably am giving away a % or 2 ROI by not using it but I don't know. The times I've tried to use it I just get frazzled. Maybe I just have to get used to it.....but I'll never cascade or stack!

[Cry Me A River]

Originally Posted by sqwerty12

How many regs are using huds for DoN's or taking notes?

lol

(see above)

I use a HUD religiously but really only to categorize the the four types of players:

Fish - Loose, dangerous to steal from, will call too wide bubble or otherwise. HUD is also good for determining just how wide/bad a call to expect.

Nit Reg - Solid or good reg but won't call you with any less than KK even when they're starting to get short.

Reg - Solid or good reg with narrow calling range unless they're getting into blind trouble or have developed an animosity with you.

Bastard Reg - Solid or good reg who loves any excuse to call.

I suppose you could take notes on the regs, but you can usually tell the nits just by their stats and you get to know the bastards because you're always cursing at them for busting you out with K4o.

[Quidnunc]

Originally Posted by sqwerty12

Hey that's what I did and lo and behold they do !!

I was about 2% at 20.80's and now I'm 9% at 52's !

But seriously DoN's from $20 up are tough and require full concentration. Give me a table of fish anyday. I can't think of a better form of NLHE to exploit fish at than DoN's (well maybe HU but anyway....).

Whoever says they hate playing fish is likely a fish themselves. If you sharkscope the bubble in any 20.80 or 52 you will more often than not find that EVERY player is a winning player...which means the fish are getting fried alive in these things.

OMG I am coming to your house and making you coach me. Did you play much at any lower stakes? Sample size?