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| STT Strategy Discussion about the play of single table tournaments. |
02-26-2009, 03:44 PM
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#1
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: rip settlers
Posts: 10,046
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Moshman SNG Book Review & Theory Discussion
Mod Edit:
Mod Edit:
Since there seems to be a lot of discussion and confusion about what the book covers well and does not cover so well, this thread can be used for such discussion and more general theory topics related to the book.
I suggest reading some of the original thread with some great review:
http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...rt=&PHPSESSID=
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Originally Posted by Thread Cat, imo
In Collin Moshman's SNG book he is very emphatic about not getting blinded out, saying you should push with trash rather than get blinded out. Wiz on the other hand gives me a pretty tight range in these types of situations.
For example, say I'm UTG 4 handed. Blinds are 200/400 and I've got 1350, everyone else has around 4000. Wiz has me shoving only 24%, but according to Moshman's Fundamental Theorem of High Blind Play I should be shoving any two.
What should be my play here?
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Last edited by TruFloridaGator; 02-26-2009 at 10:38 PM.
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02-26-2009, 03:48 PM
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#2
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: in the Poker Rights' Trenches
Posts: 22,335
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Re: Moshman vs. SNG Wiz
Somewhere in between 24% & 100%, likely around 80ish%. The blinds hitting us is an important implication that we have to factor in, so we should definitely be taking some -EV spots, but certainly not with 100%. You can still make a call in the BB, get a walk, or other plays that would be better than shoving absolutely ATC if they are calling wide. ATCs is a good plan of action in this spot.
Also, if Wiz only has you shoving 24%, your likely calling ranges might be too loose with everyone only at 4k each.
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02-26-2009, 06:32 PM
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#3
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journeyman
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 241
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Re: Moshman vs. SNG Wiz
Also, IIRC, Wiz isn't so good in these sorts of spots because it doesn't factor in the loss of FE and the position of the blinds. So it might come up with some weird results ocassionally. Also why Wiz isn't the best for some double-or-nothing bubble situations.
Can anyone correct me on this?
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02-26-2009, 06:38 PM
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#4
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old hand
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,936
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Re: Moshman vs. SNG Wiz
like someone said above, taking a slightly -ev shove is better off than folding, since sometimes if you fold you wont find too many more +ev scenarios....id follow wiz but just note spots where a borderline shove is needed
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02-26-2009, 08:16 PM
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#5
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not actually jenny
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: @Katie_Dozier
Posts: 1,343
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Re: Moshman vs. SNG Wiz
Take any Wiz suggestion in under 5BB situations with a big grain of salt.
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02-26-2009, 08:48 PM
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#6
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journeyman
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 266
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LC: Collin Moshman vs low stakes games
So I've read his sit n go book about 4 times over, made about a hundred pages of notes on his example, theory anything (with the exception of high blinds I'm not ready for that info....but do the steals and resteals work as effectively in the low stakes games?
Last edited by TruFloridaGator; 02-26-2009 at 10:38 PM.
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02-26-2009, 08:59 PM
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#7
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banned
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Crying over spilt $$$
Posts: 8,265
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Re: LC: Collin Moshman vs low stakes games
You'd need to be a bit more specific if you want someone to help. Find a few hands (or invent some) that cover the kinds of spots you want to discuss.
One thing you can do is run the spots Moshman discusses in SNG Wiz. There are a couple of spots he suggests resteals that are a bit light. Try them in Wiz, then you can answer for yourself whether his advice is accurate in that area.
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02-26-2009, 09:08 PM
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#8
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journeyman
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 266
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Re: LC: Collin Moshman vs low stakes games
Quote:
Originally Posted by drzen
You'd need to be a bit more specific if you want someone to help. Find a few hands (or invent some) that cover the kinds of spots you want to discuss.
One thing you can do is run the spots Moshman discusses in SNG Wiz. There are a couple of spots he suggests resteals that are a bit light. Try them in Wiz, then you can answer for yourself whether his advice is accurate in that area.
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Yeah sorry about being vague. What I mean is, given that most people won't read his book, I should have a good edge against the average player and be able to win decently at low stakes games?
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02-26-2009, 09:17 PM
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#9
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journeyman
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 394
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Re: LC: Collin Moshman vs low stakes games
Yes, that book will make you a low stakes winner for sure. But like anything, don't take everything as concrete and 100% true. Reading a book like Moshman's is just the first step to being the best SnG player you can be. Start reading, playing, browsing the forums, and you will start to improve.
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02-26-2009, 09:21 PM
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#10
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: May 2004
Location: This is not a gambling website
Posts: 5,100
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Re: LC: Collin Moshman vs low stakes games
Quote:
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What I mean is, given that most people won't read his book, I should have a good edge against the average player and be able to win decently at low stakes games?
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You should def have an edge at the low stakes games. Winning "decently" can be harder to judge since since the games have a natural variance that we are always dealing with. In the long run you should be a decent winner if you just work on learning this game and getting feedback from better players on spots your unsure about.
Getting a program like wiz is a solid first step in the right direction.
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02-26-2009, 09:58 PM
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#11
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enthusiast
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Tallahassee
Posts: 88
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Re: LC: Collin Moshman vs low stakes games
That book alone had me killing the small stakes SnG's. I would highly recommend it to anyone playing SnG's. To answer your question, no steals and resteals wont work as effectively in my opinion just because the players are worse and will call with lighter. You should definitely read the end game part though, esp. on the bubble, it is essential to becoming successful at SnG's.
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02-27-2009, 01:17 AM
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#12
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banned
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Crying over spilt $$$
Posts: 8,265
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Re: LC: Collin Moshman vs low stakes games
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piggleop
Yeah sorry about being vague. What I mean is, given that most people won't read his book, I should have a good edge against the average player and be able to win decently at low stakes games?
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I'd say definitely but that doesn't make it the bible.
I'd also strongly recommend it for lowstakes beginners. Yeah, the resteal section might get you into trouble, but at least it errs on the aggro side; and the pushing tables are not all that good, but they'll mostly keep you out of trouble at least.
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02-27-2009, 10:42 AM
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#13
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centurion
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 101
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Re: Moshman SNG Book Review & Theory Discussion
DrZen! Please elaborate on your meaning on Moshman's pushing tables! Are they too loose, too tight?!
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02-27-2009, 11:39 AM
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#14
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sad panda
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: United Federation of Nit-Farmers.
Posts: 9,407
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Re: Moshman SNG Book Review & Theory Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by bubinga
DrZen! Please elaborate on your meaning on Moshman's pushing tables! Are they too loose, too tight?!
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They don't consider enough of the variables.
Juk
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02-27-2009, 11:48 AM
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#15
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adept
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: South Cosmos
Posts: 785
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Re: Moshman SNG Book Review & Theory Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thread Cat, imo
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That link doesn't work for me. Is this the this the thread? (review by Slim Pickens)
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/36...927-post12923/
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