I am struggling to fund my way in poker. (that was a typo but I decided to keep it because it fits better) I have been playing for about 5 years now and have had some success, so I decided that if I could continue having success, I would leave my job as a middle school math teacher in 2 years to pursue this full time.

At that time, I will be completely out of debt except for my mortgage. I would probably be selling my house around that time also, hopefully for a profit, increasing my bankroll by that much more and having absolutely no debt.

I am 29 and have no wife or kids. This seemed perfect for me.

So in June of 2009, I started to play midstakes more often. Even though I was playing decently but with some leaks, I crashed and burned. Nice.

I rebuilt my bankroll and proceeded to break even over the next 12 months (around 15000 games). Now I am so used to breaking even, that I cant see my way out. I have tried dropping down, coaching, video sites, and posting more but I am absolutely stuck. I've tried switching to HU, reg speeds, and 18 mans. I will continue to play through because I still like the game, but I just dont know if it is a viable career for me.

I still have 2 years left to get better. I think I am doing what it takes, but I am not getting better. Maybe these next 2 years would be best used to develop my next career outside of poker.

Pokerwise, some of you may know me better than I know myself. Am I just being a bitch or am I really missing what it takes skillwise?

Here is my graph since June 09. I dont put much faith in that red line because I dont think it has been proven to be reliable.

I'd want the games to get a bit better before I gave up a career to play $16s-$60s for a living, and even if they did poker is a bit volatile. I'm not sure what the teaching industry is like but if you would have a difficult time getting a job back then it seems quite dangerous. I wouldn't quit poker or anything, keep grinding of course and if things turn around over a really long stretch then it's up to you to make an intelligent decision.

thank god for rakeback

Loxxii just curious what % of those games are 9mans? As far as 9 mans goes the red line is roughly accurate. If mostly 9mans, blow brains out

I haven't played much with you, but I haven't noticed any major flaws in your game. I just happen to think you're a nit Keep grinding and studying, you'll get there.

Don't let the breakeven strech get to you too much, dunno how much you game select, but the games are reg/variance filled and so many decent/good people are breakevenish this year

I know it's prob not a popular opinion around here, but I can't imagine playing low/mid stakes sngs for a living these days. If you're gonna do it, you need to be an absolute boss. You need to either be one of the best players or the best at putting in a ton of volume.

I know you've been around for awhile and it looks like you put in some decent volume in the last year. Does it still feel like the dream?

Wow, i'd probably delete the HEM database so i would never have to look at that graph again.

not too familiar with PS+HEM, but can you filter for just 2-9man or are the 18man included anyways if you busted on the first table?

Its about 13000 9mans. When I filter for just them, my green line is at -2570 and my red line is at 5400.

Is there any kind of database or luck analyzer that works well for MTSNGs or MTTs?

Yeah, the last 12 months feels like a very bad one. I just watched good2cu's busto to robusto.

It didnt help.

Have you ever considered switching over to cash tables? Personally I dont understad why someone with your poker experience and time would not watch a few videos, hire a coach and start making $50+/h in no time.

There used to be a time when sit and gos were very, very profitable, but I'm afraid those days are over...sure, you'll still find the occasional donkey at your table, but thanks to people like Collin Moshman or Phil Shaw you'll also find many regs and players who are just as well informed about the game as you are. Maybe at 1 dollar SNGs you'll still find half of the table are idiots, but move up even to 10 or 20 dollar SNGs and at least half of them have read Moshman, have studied the game, have analyzed tons of hands in SNG Wizard, etc etc etc. Result: there goes your huge edge over the field, and the variance you'll see in your results will be even worse and more discouraging than it would have been a few years ago...

It's been said by much better players than me, and by some pros and WSOP bracelet winners too: the days when SNGs were very profitable are gone...unless maybe if you can put in a very high volume of games, then who knows.

If you want to make a profit in online poker nowadays, be it SNGs or limit hold'em or no limit cash games, you have to be not just good but extremely good, since the edge you have over the field has become smaller and smaller in recent years. Reading books that everyone else has read too is not enough anymore. Live is a different matter though and can be more profitable.

Switch to a game where people are clueless, for instance omaha, razz, or triple deuce to seven. Study a less popular form of poker in great detail, and you'll find yourself again with at least a decent edge over lots of players who don't know what they're doing

It's definitely not that easy, but it's a step in the right direction imo.

I would suggest learning cash games, nl or omaha. If nothing else it will give you something new to learn, give you some new skills and give you a break from sng's. Even if you go back to sng's after a while it will help get you out of the rut your in.

Not trying to discourage you, and you're obviously a ton better than I am, but I've enjoyed the game much more after making it just an occasional hobby. Of course I make a good amount IRL so of course that comes in to play.

So much has been published and read about texas hold'em in all its different forms (limit hold'em, SNGs, MTTs, NL cash games) that the days when you had a huge advantage of knowledge over the field are gone and will never come back.

Why do you think many pros prefer Omaha over Hold'em nowadays? Because they know their edge is bigger in that game.

So unless you are that extremely good in hold'em that you can squeeze a profit out of today's extremely tiny edges, switching to another game where people have not all read the same classic books or where there hardly are any books apart from one or two exceptions could be wise imo.

Take SNGs for example. I don't know of any serious high volume SNG player who has not read and studied the Moshman book, who doesn't use SNG Wizard or other tools, etc etc. So where does your edge need to come from if it's not in the fact that you know something about the game that others don't, and if you also don't have the psychological aspect of seeing someone's expressions and behavior like in live play?

who have you been getting coaching from, and how much coaching have you gotten? you definitely don't seem to me like someone who is below average intelligence and I can't imagine that if you got the right teaching and you actually listened to it and followed the advice you couldn't turn a profit in mid stakes sngs.

I have no idea if you're the same but i had a roommate last year who I was trying to coach. I'm not even sure he beats NL50 right now. He's a very smart kid, but from what I can tell his problem is even when he knows what to do he wont apply it in game because he'll come up with some weird reason to do something else that he notices in hind-sight is bad. it's like he keeps leveling himself. I guess sometimes the correct thing to do is just "too easy" and he tries to think of something "smarter" to do.

re: sngs being dead. I agree playing other games like cash nlhe/plo are probably a better decision for the long run if you can be suited for the games. i still feel like some people are just better off playing sngs any way, and there are still a bunch of us making >$100/hr playing STTs.

Poker books are great for beginners. Once you reach a very minimal level of competence, 95% of them are worthless.

I don't think sngs are dead per see

But other games are far more profitable and viable IMO

It's pretty well known around here I switched to mtts pretty much last nov. It came off the back of a 4k game b/e stretch where I tried everything coaching videos and HH reviews with some STTers

I wasn't playing bad or had huge leaks, but ur edge in sngs is just so much smaller today that even in 9 mans u can have large variance.

Anyways the switch reignited my passion for poker, made me a better all round player for sure and has been pretty profitable.
I am also dabbling in cash now and trying to learn some mix games....

It could just be sngs are not for u or even hold em. Just my 2 cents but I would try some other options before giving up....

Maybe I need to experiment with a new game every 4-6 months for the next 2 years to see which one is most profitable for me. That will tell me what I need to so when I leave teaching.

Thanks.

Ive heard people say sngs are dead and I can see why they would think that, but I have never considered that we may be moving to a day when no limit hold em as a whole will be dead. That is very hard to believe, but I guess trying different games couldn't hurt.

Similar situation between myself and you... I personally don't know which I would hate more my normal job or playing sngs all day. I have tried to get out of sngs several times without success. I feel like experimenting with other games has helped my sng game and hurt it at the same time.

Re: sngs dead, its not so much that they are dead, as that you have to be able to significantly beat the rake which is pretty horrendous when compared to your expected profit per game without RB unless you are a RB grinder.

I just want to publicly say thanks to everyone for PMs, good advice, and encouragement.

I feel like I missed the boat by a few years with poker just like I did with real estate (I sold it for 6 months starting towards the end of 2006 until the crash. I would have been rich 3-5 years earlier just like pre-uigea)

Nevertheless, I am glad to have met and talked with you guys on this board. I am not going anywhere, but it just feels like a good time to say thanks for teaching me and thanks for having good intelligent and comforting conversations with me. I dont get that much in real life from family and friends being from the hood and all.

Long live the nerds!

Q. Do you still enjoy poker?

I remember when first coming across this forum and wondering about those people that actually play online for a living..and the responses came across as roughly "Have about 6months salary in bank, play overrolled, make sure you are a winning player over a significant sample size"

I think about 1-2 months later I started 30 tabling $3-$6 9mans with no idea of ICM or wtf I was doing. BE over 3k games as a boku wannabe; anyway

I think it completely depends what your social needs and dependencies are. I mean once I properly learned SnGs it's been comfortable to live better off than most college students, and for most of that time I sucked.

How much do you need 50k a year. How much do you need 100k a year.



I wish you the best of luck Loxxii, you seem a highly intelligent person and I enjoy reading your strat threads

Loxxii, that is a ridiculously unlucky graph, very sorry to see that.
I do want to point out that even if you would run on EV you would have made less than $1/game, which is think is far too low to consider doing this full time.

There is a ton of good advice ITT.
Consider that currently the money you make is a nice addition on your standard/no-variance income. If you switch to poker fulltime, you should actually be looking to make as much as your regular job plus your existing poker income for it to be worthwhile financially.

I think I've played quite some sessions with you and you're definitely a good player, although I always had you tagged as very nitty and risk averse, which imo prevents higher ROIs. (Only my perception though, no offense intended).

The suggestions about considering cash are also good, since they also make you improve your postflop game, which is very beneficial for your sng games as well.

Both of Bones' post ITT are pretty spot on imo. My belief is also that you should not do this for a living unless you're making at least >$50/h, which is extremely difficult at low-mid stakes sngs. That is also definitely not easy at cash games, cos they do require a lot of effort, but the potential seems a lot better.

Anyway, good luck with the gind and I hope you get to run a lot better!

Hi loxxii,

I was wondering what site you play on and if you game select? I don't know your SN so I don't know much about your game but I am assuming you are solid based on 2+2.

I stopped playing much volume in the $60's and $114's on Stars because the tables are reg infested. I use a color coded system and simply register for tournaments where the amount of fish balance the amount of regs.

If you are looking to play SNGs full time though, I would assume it would be very difficult to game select in this manner since you wouldn't have enough games to play. I'm not sure if you read Jhubb's blog post on how much regs cut down winrates but the effect is huge. A player like brutalizer20 ($60 reg) has a parabola shaped graph now. He went up to 110k and now he is BE but supernova elite.

I would imagine even with your atrocious luck that you cleared a decent sum in rakeback if you were on FTP or Stars. 15000 games at 30+3 a pop would be about 1 dollar in rakeback per game. So that's $10k red line with $15k rakeback, assuming that's right?

I'm not sure if you can handle a mind-numbing amount of games per year but even $15k earnings isn't too bad for a hobby depending on how many tables you run. You clearly have some talent so good luck in whatever you attempt to do.

I still think you are one of the best players I see. Also, have you tried changing your avatar?

hope you get my pm.

Lifetime, I made slightly more than a dollar a game and if you include rakeback and all the free tourneys and run good rewards, I figure I could average about $2 a game. I play 15-20tables, so I that's like $40-50 bucks per hour when I am running normally.

I spend about 25K a year, save about 10K, and probably only NEED about 15-20K.

IRL, as a teacher I make liek $25 per hour which does not take into account the hours I work outside of class preparing for class. I like teaching, but I only get to do it about 20% of the time. The other 80% is babysitting, law enforcement, calling parents, paper work, psychiatrist, getting blamed for not motivating kids who refuse to try, etc. These things, I do not like to do. I prefer poker to them because even with all of its ups and downs, I can always leave for a walk or punch a wall (mart greeter) when I get frustrated. I dont have these options at school.

I do still love poker. Especially the preflop gotcha when I snap off a steal or shove a limp-caller and have them dominated.

I just dont like looking as the suckout comes on the flop and subsequent streets. I see myself get it in good, smile, quickly minimize the table, then wait for the ding.

gg