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06-15-2008, 08:23 AM   #1
IFoldPktOnes
veteran

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,376
ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post)

Yep, it’s my 1k post. Ahh, but how many of my posts were wasted doing mundane ICM calculations for lazy 2+2ers? Well, consider this the last time I am doing your ICM homework for you...

Software
PokerStove
ICM Calculator

Hand 1 – The Basics
Quote:
 Poker Stars \$210+\$15 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t200/t400 Blinds - t25 Antes - 4 players UTG: t5225 BTN: t1800 SB: t2140 Hero (BB): t5835 Pre Flop: Hero is BB with A K UTG raises to t5200 all in, 2 folds, Hero?
Poker is all about maximizing your Expected Value (EV). In order to calculate EV, you determine the value of every possible outcome, multiply each value by the probability of that outcome happening, and then add all of those numbers together. I will call the value of an outcome it's equity (EQ).

Possible Outomes for Hand 1 (ignoring ties):
• Call and win - with equity EQ_win, probability P_win
• Call and lose - with equity EQ_lose, probability P_lose
• Fold - with equity EQ_fold
We want to know whether calling is better than folding, so we take the EV of calling relative to folding.

Equation 1
EV = EV(call) – EV(fold)
EV = ( P_win*EQ_win + P_lose*EQ_lose ) – ( EQ_fold )

Type the stack sizes for each outcome into the ICM calculator to determine equities:

Put UTG on a range (I used ~30%), and PokerStove to find P_win and P_lose:

EV = P_win*EQ_win + P_lose*EQ_lose – EQ_fold
EV = 0.64438*44.735% + 0.35562*9.493% – 32.440%
EV = -0.24%

Repeating this calculation for every hand, or for every villain range would be tedious. We just want to know which hands are +EV. After some maths (set EV>0, P_lose = 1-P_win, re-arrange), we get a magical equation...

Equation 2
P_win > ( EQ_fold – EQ_lose ) / (EQ_win – EQ_lose)

This gives the required P_win value needed to make a call +EV.

For Hand 1:
P_win > ( 32.440% - 9.493% ) / ( 44.735% - 9.493% ) = 22.947 / 35.242
P_win > 65.11%

Hand 2 – 3bet Preflop (6max)

For some reason sng wiz doesn’t do 3bet situations, so it’s good to know how to do them the old fashioned way.

Quote:
 Poker Stars \$72+\$6 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 6 players UTG: t1500 MP: t1500 CO: t1500 Hero (BTN): t1500 SB: t1500 BB: t1500 Pre Flop: Hero is BTN with Kd Ah 3 folds, Hero raises to t60, 1 fold, BB raises to t1500 all in, Hero?
This is stars 6max so the payouts are 65/35. Plug the stacks into the ICM calculator for each outcome. When you lose you are busto, so EQ_lose = 0. Here are the others:

Equation 2:
P_win > ( EQ_fold – EQ_lose ) / (EQ_win – EQ_lose)

EQ_lose = 0, so this becomes:

P_win > EQ_fold / EQ_win
P_win > 16.054 / 31.085 = 51.65%

So you need at least 51.65% equity to call a shove.

( Equation 1 also simplifies to: EV = P_win*EQ_win – EQ_fold )

Hand 3 – ZOMG ICM Postflop?

Quote:
 Poker Stars \$15+\$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t15/t30 Blinds - 8 players UTG: t1535 UTG+1: t1475 MP1: t1545 MP2: t1460 CO: t2425 Hero (BTN): t2080 SB: t1630 BB: t1350 Pre Flop: Hero is BTN with A Q 3 folds, MP2 calls t30, CO calls t30, Hero raises to t150, 2 folds, MP2 calls t120, CO calls t120 Flop: (t495) 6 A 9 MP2 checks, CO bets t120, Hero raises to t360, MP2 raises to t1310 all in, CO folds, Hero?
OK, this time you can work out the stack sizes yourself (50/30/20 payout). I get:

EQ_win = 24.896%
EQ_lose = 5.044%
EQ_fold = 11.781%

P_win > ( EQ_fold – EQ_lose ) / (EQ_win – EQ_lose)
P_win > ( 11.781% - 5.044% ) / ( 24.896% - 5.044% ) = 6.737 / 19.852
P_win > 33.94%

You need ~34% equity to call this shove.

Hand 4 – The Multiway Pot

Quote:
 Poker Stars \$55+\$5 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t200/t400 Blinds - t25 Antes - 4 players Hero (UTG): t1585 BTN: t1925 SB: t6785 BB: t3205 Pre Flop: Hero is BB with X X Hero raises to t1200, Button raises to t1900 all in, SB calls t1700, 1 fold, Hero?
EV = EV(call) – EV(fold)
EV = ( P_win*P_BTN_win_side*EQ_BTN_win_side + P_win*P_SB_win_side*EQ_SB_win_side
) - ( P_BTN_win*EQ_BTN_win + P_SB_win*EQ_SB_win )

.... Just kidding! Even I’m too lazy to do that, here’s a dodgy way to run these spots in sng wiz:
• Create a custom structure where the BB is the amount you have raised.
• Set the SB to the amount of the rest of the dead money in the pot.
• Put yourself in the BB, and a player who folds in the SB.
And there you go:

Thanks STTF
Obv there are (still) lots of cool 2+2ers around STTF, I’m not going to list them all. But thanks AMT, Kevin8423, DevinLake, and Little John. Back when I was a noob and first found these forums you were the posters who’s advice I knew I could trust.

Hopefully some of you ICM noobs learnt something from this post.

Last edited by IFoldPktOnes; 06-15-2008 at 08:29 AM.

 06-15-2008, 08:31 AM #2 NJD77 Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: New Round New Chances Everyone Posts: 9,534 Re: ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post) Nicely structured post. Knew most of it already, but still good to refresh.
 06-15-2008, 08:43 AM #3 Oczkusss adept     Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: 777 Posts: 920 Re: ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post) Nice1!!! I Love these equitations..ICM calculations etc.
06-15-2008, 08:59 AM   #4
pokerman777
grinder

Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 537
Re: ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post)

Quote:
 Hopefully some of you ICM noobs learnt something from this post.
ha-ha excellent math post . What is your profession , education ?

 06-15-2008, 09:12 AM #5 Doublez-Down Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Believing The Chapel Bell Will Ring Posts: 7,243 Re: ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post) Coming from a Criminal Justice major, this hurts my head.
 06-15-2008, 09:19 AM #6 The Lipo Fund grinder     Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Chasing the Green Light Posts: 13,294 Re: ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post) great post man, i've always valued your advice highly and I feel you are one of the best posters as far as strategy goes in this forum makes the 2.5k post i had planned seem so trivial now. i might wait for 3k ;p ty and gl with everything poker related
 06-15-2008, 10:35 AM #7 flopton adept     Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,041 Re: ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post) Nice post, you definitely seem to know a lot about this and it's good to know how to do it by hand. It inspires me to go through and solve a few problems with pen and paper (and pokerstove) the way I used to do it before good ol sngwiz.
 06-15-2008, 01:02 PM #8 Amerzel adept     Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 731 Re: ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post) Nice post. Congratulations on reaching the 1k mark.
 06-15-2008, 01:25 PM #9 jukofyork Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: A000045 Posts: 11,235 Re: ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post) Nice post! I particularly like the "Hand 3 – ZOMG ICM Postflop?" hand as it's pretty rare here that people think about postflop like this (probably because SNGPT, SNGWiz, etc won't let you do it automatically). Knowing you need 34% equity to call the push makes the decision just as easy calling with draws. Juk
 06-15-2008, 02:27 PM #10 Beerocrat champion of the sun     Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: master of karate and friendship Posts: 5,545 Re: ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post) Yay maths! Solid, informative post, as usual. Thanks and GL.
 06-15-2008, 02:53 PM #11 GlennBeck banned     Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 270 Re: ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post) My brain hurts
 06-15-2008, 04:05 PM #12 jd_poker Pooh-Bah     Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: in your head Posts: 3,760 Re: ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post) Good post. Would read again.
 06-15-2008, 06:20 PM #13 drzen Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Crying over spilt \$\$\$ Posts: 8,265 Re: ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post) As usual, an excellent post. Looking forward to the next 1K.
06-15-2008, 06:37 PM   #14
SiQ
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: in the dream machine
Posts: 6,849
Re: ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post)

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Doublez-Down Coming from a high school drop out, this hurts my head.
..

06-15-2008, 08:21 PM   #15
IFoldPktOnes
veteran

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,376
Re: ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post)

I tried to dumb it down as much as I could.

Bonus points for anyone who identifies a Hero/Villain, Hand 3 should be obvious...

Quote:
 Originally Posted by pokerman777 ha-ha excellent math post . What is your profession , education ?
I'm doing a physics major, but my brain got fried after too much studying so I am taking the next 8 months off.

 06-16-2008, 02:19 AM #16 CheeseMoney old hand   Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Boycotting Coca-Cola Posts: 1,840 Re: ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post) Congrats on 1k. Will read this soon as I plan on starting to play poker again within the month, and I will then bless you with much poker insight. Oh yeah, just don't drop out.
 06-16-2008, 04:29 PM #17 bunkerbuster newbie   Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 38 Re: ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post) I'm glad i stumbled accross your post as I'm having difficulty understanding how these calculations have any relevance to a given hand as you are playing it. do you need to learn by rote certain situations that crop up regularly or are you expected to work each situation out in real time? (on-line site time limits seem to exclude this and if you're live in a casino?) an example of my confusion is example 3. having raised his flop bet and then watching him run over you for all his stack, do you think your aces are good? if not, does it matter what your equity is? also, if you are not dead on with his possible range, how worthwhile are the equity figures anyway, some must be so borderline that you're a coin-flip anyway? I appreciate the example of not calling the raise in example 1, the book i've read by K.Moshman explains that point well but i'm having difficullty seeing the point in the post flop examples. any help greatly received
 06-16-2008, 04:40 PM #18 Rodolphe veteran     Join Date: May 2007 Location: Paris Posts: 3,332 Re: ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post) Very good post Ifldpcktns. I like the Hand 4, it's a SNGWiz trick I didn't know, ty. You don't post a lot but everytime it's good quality and argumentation.
 06-16-2008, 05:09 PM #19 StregaChess old hand     Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: in my head Posts: 1,771 Re: ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post) Very nice post! Can you follow up more on how this... Hand 3 – ZOMG ICM Postflop? Falls into hand reading, defining the range here is critical yes?
 06-16-2008, 05:15 PM #20 Takeover_inc grinder   Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: TEXAS (blog updated 8-15) Posts: 618 Re: ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post) thanks a lot and gl
06-16-2008, 08:41 PM   #21
IFoldPktOnes
veteran

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,376
Re: ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post)

Quote:
 Originally Posted by StregaChess Very nice post! Can you follow up more on how this... Hand 3 – ZOMG ICM Postflop? Falls into hand reading, defining the range here is critical yes?
Yep, hand reading is always essential, and is often (like in this case) the limiting factor to making correct decisions. I'm not really trying to argue how these hands should be played (I chose this hand because it is AMT pwning with AQo preflop), I'm just showing how the maths is done. The maths tells us we can call if villains range contains any dominated ace, {99,66,AJs,A9s,A6s,AJo,A9o,A6o} (35.9% equity).

Quote:
 Originally Posted by bunkerbuster I'm glad i stumbled accross your post as I'm having difficulty understanding how these calculations have any relevance to a given hand as you are playing it. do you need to learn by rote certain situations that crop up regularly or are you expected to work each situation out in real time? (on-line site time limits seem to exclude this and if you're live in a casino?) an example of my confusion is example 3. having raised his flop bet and then watching him run over you for all his stack, do you think your aces are good? if not, does it matter what your equity is? also, if you are not dead on with his possible range, how worthwhile are the equity figures anyway, some must be so borderline that you're a coin-flip anyway? I appreciate the example of not calling the raise in example 1, the book i've read by K.Moshman explains that point well but i'm having difficullty seeing the point in the post flop examples. any help greatly received
These examples are just to show you how to analyze a hand post-game. Like I said before I'm not trying to show 4 examples where I have determined the correct play, I chose 4 interesting hands that have been discussed on 2+2. But if you repeat these calculations for hands you are unsure about, you will improve your intuition at the tables. This will work best in common spots, like say you have ~15 bbs 6-handed and make a 3x raise preflop and someone 3bets you all-in, if you have done enough of these calculations in the past you will have an instinctive feel for what your calling range should be vs any given shoving range.

FWIW villain in Hand 1 is Bigjoe, so I would snap-call and type "MY BUBBLE" into the chat, I bet Moshman doesn't teach that in his book.

06-16-2008, 08:51 PM   #22
jukofyork
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: A000045
Posts: 11,235
Re: ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post)

Quote:
 Originally Posted by IFoldPktOnes FWIW villain in Hand 1 is Bigjoe, so I would snap-call and type "MY BUBBLE" into the chat, I bet Moshman doesn't teach that in his book.
Hehe, I remember the post now! It was the one where he called and Bigjoe told him "it was a -\$300 call" and ended up with a big discussion on the long-term EV of spitecalling Bigjoe to stop him pushing ATC in spots like this.

Juk

06-16-2008, 09:05 PM   #23
checkmate36
Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2004
Location: This is not a gambling website
Posts: 5,114
Re: ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post)

Quote:
 Originally Posted by The Lipo Fund great post man, i've always valued your advice highly and I feel you are one of the best posters as far as strategy goes in this forum ty and gl with everything poker related
I agree. Looking forward to another 1k posts.

06-16-2008, 10:56 PM   #24
AMT
Charlie Brown of MTTs

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: wat
Posts: 17,700
Re: ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post)

thanks for the shout out, pktones. good luck with poker, it's been a pleasure having you around here as a strat poster and I hope you continue to indulge in poker study with us.

holla!

edit:
Quote:
 (I chose this hand because it is AMT pwning with AQo preflop)
orly?

Last edited by AMT; 06-17-2008 at 02:53 AM.

 06-16-2008, 11:03 PM #25 Q Pooh-Bah     Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 4,207 Re: ICM-101 Calling Shoves (1k post) So are you suggesting a fold in hand1? if you do i have to disagree with that, that spot for that guy is worth taking a risky ATC shove that is -ev for this exact hand but once he gets chiplead he gets into mass +ev ATC shove zone where youll have to be folding everything, and you really can't let that happen with AK. And since AK hadly changes its 65% win chance against various ranges i think its a must call spot.

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