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gray areas utg and in the blinds gray areas utg and in the blinds

04-13-2017 , 08:35 PM
I have been playing for around eight years 1/2, 2/5 and sit & go's. A friend posed a very basic question and I didn't have an answer for him. He said:
"is it +ev to play A6os UTG or UTG +2?" My answer was situational: "if the field is mostly aggressive: fold, if the field is mostly passive: call." I simply don't know how to answer this. or how to go about answering this. Anybody?

similarly, lets say I have 74os in the BB and 8 callers b4 me. I know I am getting 16/1 on my money, but I don't know how to calculate what my odds are of winning with 74os against a full table.
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04-13-2017 , 10:28 PM
I don't think it's a particularly gray area. I think it's an extremely clear fold.

Also, I'm moving this to an SNG forum.
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04-14-2017 , 11:03 AM
Could it be that u mischange raise(/call) for call?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chip connor
"is it +ev to play A6os UTG or UTG +2?" My answer was situational: "if the field is mostly aggressive: fold, if the field is mostly passive: call."
I assume this is 9m as your other scenario, so it's a fold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chip connor
similarly, lets say I have 74os in the BB and 8 callers b4 me. I know I am getting 16/1 on my money, but I don't know how to calculate what my odds are of winning with 74os against a full table.
Check
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04-16-2017 , 01:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeaksSuck
Check
ayy lmao
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04-24-2017 , 01:50 AM
If you are 5-handed and UTG+2 is also the button then A6o is fine to open but it's pretty meaningless to name positions that way.

Count them back from the BB based on how many people you are opening into.

BB, SB(opens into 1 player), BTN (opens into 2 players), CO (3), HJ (4), LJ (5), U7 (6), U8(7), U9(8)

LJ is lowjack
U8 meaning "The position that would be UTG if we were 8-handed" - however if we are 9 handed then U8 is the position that some people would call UTG+1.
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04-25-2017 , 05:56 PM
Expected Value is a fairly limited number. You shouldn't think any more or less of it than it is.
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04-26-2017 , 08:12 AM
So what's your alternative to finding the best play? Voodoo?
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04-26-2017 , 09:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeaksSuck
So what's your alternative to finding the best play? Voodoo?
I hope you realize that starting hand EV is merely the summation of a large sample of hands and their relative profits from different positions around the table. It is a somewhat basic number. It doesn't take into account any particular conditions or board textures, but lumps all of them into one huge pile. It doesn't take into account player skill, whether the hand is likely to make it showdown, how many times the blinds have folded to a raise, the tightness or looseness of a table, the history of the hands played, and on and on and on. Unfortunately, like ICM, people don't understand the flaws of such numbers. It does help you establish a baseline for preflop choices, but you can figure that out without EV.
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04-26-2017 , 09:48 AM
Jup, Poker is complex.
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04-26-2017 , 05:27 PM
Hrmmmm you seem to be talking about equity, not EV.
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04-26-2017 , 06:40 PM
Please don't
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04-26-2017 , 09:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LektorAJ
Hrmmmm you seem to be talking about equity, not EV.
I'm actually talking about starting hand Expected Value. Equity calculations generally need other hand values so that a percentage of your stake of the pot can be established. I.E., you need to know that not only are you playing A6o but that your opponent has K9s. Otherwise, you cannot establish a percentage that your hand will win the pot. Equity is based on showdown values, while starting hand EV is based on real world samples.

Last edited by Hrmmmm; 04-26-2017 at 09:34 PM. Reason: clarification
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04-26-2017 , 09:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeaksSuck
Please don't
Please don't act like I'm an idiot when you're the one that seems to believe that starting hand Expected Value is something different than it is. It is generally a broad statistical average that takes no particulars into account other than starting hand, position, and money won/lost.
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04-26-2017 , 09:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LektorAJ
Hrmmmm you seem to be talking about equity, not EV.

I'm actually talking about starting hand Expected Value. Equity calculations generally need other hand values so that a percentage of your stake of the pot can be established. I.E., you need to know that not only are you playing A6o but that your opponent has K9s. Otherwise, you cannot establish a percentage that your hand will win the pot. Equity is based on showdown values, while starting hand EV is based on real world samples.
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04-26-2017 , 09:50 PM
https://www.tightpoker.com/hands/ev_position.html

Here is a link to a page containing starting hand expected values. As you'll see the value is static, although it is data dependent. The broader the sample, the closer it'll be to its real value. As you'll see A6o actually always has a -EV. All that means is that generally players lose money with it in every position at a 10-seat table.
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04-26-2017 , 10:04 PM
To illustrate my point, the pro players in that sample may have a +EV with A6o. Starting hand EV is a massive average. There are many variables for which is does not account. Equity is also flawed in a way as it is usually based on showdown value. Many hands do not reach showdown! Ofc, fold equity attempts to compensate for this flaw.
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04-27-2017 , 04:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrmmmm
Please don't act like I'm an idiot when you're the one that seems to believe ...
Got it, I'm an idiot, I suck at poker and always hit those two outers. GL at the tables bro.
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04-27-2017 , 05:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrmmmm
Please don't act like I'm an idiot when you're the one that seems to believe that starting hand Expected Value is something different than it is. It is generally a broad statistical average that takes no particulars into account other than starting hand, position, and money won/lost.
So if I make up a new form of poker then there is no concept of expected value as there is no prior statsistical data?
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04-27-2017 , 06:23 AM
My voodoo doll just said this post will be followed by a long explanation containing several misinterpretations of poker/math concepts, proving you are wrong right.

Last edited by LeaksSuck; 04-27-2017 at 06:28 AM.
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