I think they might be equivalent. I am traveling this week, but I will test it this weekend.

Confirmed. 60,10,10,10,10 is equivalent to to half ICM/half cev. Wish I'd thought of that before.

cool! seems like STTF produces something useful every now and then

Wow. I am one of a few players here that actually enjoy these Fifty50 games. I have been looking for some kind of strategy talk, but the only discussion that I keep seeing is about the rake.

I need to preface this by saying that I am not a very good poker player, and I am an even worse SNG player. But, I played the $1 10-man Fifty50s and they were very easy.

I have also played 10 man turbo $5 fifty50s. I have played 219 games at $5 and I have maintained 10% ROI. Obviously this is a small sample size, but these have to be somewhat beatable if I can show a profit. I will keep going and let you know my results.

I came here to talk strategy although I hope that I am not talking to myself.

Basic ICM Strategy:
Since the DON strategy appears to be too tight. I wanted to see how much looser would be the "correct" ICM play.

Here is a standard 10 players with equal 10BB stacks. I did a lot of different scenarios, but this example seems to be consistent relative to stack sizes and opponents etc.


DON
150 / 75 ante 15 10 players
No raises, no calls
What Hands would be correct to shove against all average opponents.
Left to Act - Push
9 - 1.8% (JJ+)
8 - 2.1% (JJ+, AKs)
7 - 3.0% (JJ+, AK)
6 - 3.8% (TT+, AK, AQs+)
5 - 5.1% (99+, AQ+)
4 - 6.8% (88+, AJ+)
3 - 11.05 (66+, AT+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs)
2 - 69.8% (too many to bother)
1 - 100% (Any 2)

Fifty50
150 / 75 ante 20 10 players
No raises, no calls
Left to Act - Push
9 - 5.9% (88+, AQ+, AJs+)
8 - 7.4% (88+, AJ+, ATs+, KQs)
7 - 9.2% (66+, AJ+, ATs+, KTs+, QJs)
6 - 15.1% (55+, AT+, A8s+, KJ+, K9s+, , Q9s+, J9s+, T9s)
5 - 32.1% (too many to bother)
4 - 64.7%
3 - 98.2%
2 - 100% (Any 2)
1 - 100% (Any 2)


To summarize:
1) Double or Nothings requires alot more folding. Seems kind of boring.
2) The New Fifty50s needs a lot more action than I had originally expected.

Interesting stuff

what is your "average opponent"? averages from your database?

I'd never have thought f50s should be that much shoving!

I am using the SitNGo Wizard "average". For example: the average call in the situation above (with 10 players and 9 left to act) was set at 12%. Those calling percentages do change by position.

Good post!

One problem though is assuming that the players will call the same % in both formats as it works both ways: not only can you make many more +EV pushes against the same opponent calling ranges, but also many more +EV calls against the same opponent pushing ranges.

Here is the Nash solution for both game types using the same scenario as you used:

DoN: http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/be...&sb=75&ante=15

Fifty50: http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/be...&sb=75&ante=15

As expected, when you consider the wider +EV calling range, the pusher's range is actually smaller than for DoNs in all corresponding positions.

Even so, your method is fine if the opponents are treating the Fifty50 structure like DoNs and calling far too tight (as I expect will be the case until players get more used to the format / study it more...). I also think this shows that the Fifty50 format will likely make for a better, possibly more long-lived, game that the DoNs as there will be a lot less "mindless" opportunities to push 100% of your hands knowing full well your "thinking" opponents can't make a +EV call with basically anything other than AA...

Juk

Hmm....Hang on. When I quoted the average I did not even consider that they would have different calling ranges. I went back and looked at the "average" DON calling range and it has 6.9%.

I need to do some reading about Nash Equilibrium.

The ranges are extremely sensitive, it`s pretty sick and it will take A LOT of practice to master them.

12% would be pretty wide in a lot of situations. Put them all on something like 9, which is a bit wide for most, but will cover some wide calls from donks as well. We can obviously be slightly wider in EP knowing we're about to get blinded for 20% of our stack even if we have 10BBs over the next couple hands. Looks like it's a lot closer to 9mans until people start calling very wide.

I find these games more like the traditional sng than DoN...
one similarity is that in the bubble, you might want to keep the shorty alive while working to gain more chips
I actually quite like fifty50, mainly because it takes shorter time to finish so you can have more games going for the session.

Some really horrible play from chip leaders with big stacks not realizing they can fold & keep the bubble alive.

I think this is the most common misconception I have seen in the 300+ games I have played to date at the $104.32 level. I will try to explain why using the concept of average bubble factors as defined in the outstanding book, "Kill Eveyone"

For the following formats these are the average bubble factors that apply early:
DON(10-man) 2
(9-left) 1.8
9-man SNG 1.2
Cash game 1

Since a Fifty50 is in essence half a DON and half what I think of as an unplayed cash game I think that the BF should be 1.5 (at he start with 10 players still left) This would imply that correct play would be looser than in the ultra-tight DON but still considerably tighter than in a 9-man SNG

Play is unreal thus far. So many "regs" just call off monster stacks with little regard for being near the bubble. The -EV calls are quite amazing. Very tough to pwn any bubble in the 20s/50s thus far with these guys calling left & right. Got to give a lot more walks and a lot less EP/MP shoving than you'd think you could do.