Not sure if anyone's aware but fiddy-fiddies are now supported in Wiz! Quite how accurate it's likely to be I've no clue.

Wiz seems to have some weird calls using this format. I don't know if it calculates equity correctly.

how does it calculate equity? also, the first f50 supporting release was bugged according to the wiz thread in software, make sure to be updated.

I was told it's half ICM and half chip equity, or something like that.

I have the update. I think that it struggles because it is either in chip EV or $ EV. Well in these the chips are with money directly on top of the money for staying alive.

I'm not sure what you mean by "it struggles", but the latest update of the Wizard should calculate equity for Fifty50s correctly. The equity calculation is half ICM and half chip equity.

What exactly does that mean? Can you post your formula?

Dude, come on. There are two prizepools. One is determined by cEV, the other by ICM with 20/20/20/20/20 payouts. It's not that hard to grasp?

Yes I realize. Given some of the posts though it sounds like sng wiz might not get it.

Edit: eh just reread it. Sounds like they have it right. Can anyone confirm that it is working right now?

The payout is weird but Im fine with it, the real problem is the rake is insanely high for a tournament with 6 minute levels. They need to make the levels 8-9 minutes, AND lower the rake substantially before these become worth playing.

If they want to introduce a new game fine, but make it a good deal.

As it is, these games arent sustainable.

ty

Those antes are gonna make calls and shoves a tad wider than 9 man's alot of the time by the looks of things.

I don't know if sgn wizard correctly issues fifty50, but the previous screenshot seems wrong to me. The correct result should be something like call with top 95%.

The ICM pay-out to calculate the right choice in fifty50 tournament should be 60-10-10-10-10 (cEV 50-0-0-0-0 + DoN 10-10-10-10-10, ICM is linear on pay-out so you can just add them).

The edge is set at 0.25% which could be explaining a lot.

What is SNGWiz using then if not this?

Juk

Is that correct?

Example: 6 players left with equal stacks (say t1000), two players go allin, if you fold you (and they dont split) you get 10% (for getting there) + you still have 1/6th of the chip, so that 8.33% = 18.33%. And not the 10 that 60-10-10-10-10 would imply, right?

But because you are not playign the rest of the game out (ie: it finishes 5-handed) you then have to allocate the equity based on the remaining stacks using ICM and a 60/10/10/10/10 prize structure.

If you try it here then it also comes out as 18.33%: http://www.icmpoker.com/Calculator.aspx

So I think it is correct (still want to know what SNGWiz is using though as it says 20/20/20/20/20 in the above screenshot?).

Juk

Aaaaaahhh of course, thanks! My brain ****ed up.

The Wizard computes ICM equity using one-half of the prize pool with 20/20/20/20/20 payouts. The other half of the prize pool is distributed using chip equity.

So it doesn't just use 60/10/10/10/10 payouts? Do you think the two are not equivalent? (Juk implied they are and I tend to agree after (hopefully) thinking about it a bit better)

I get tiny differences in my ICM tests running 60,10,10,10,10 Vs (20,20,20,20,20 + 100,0...) / 2

They're small enough it's probably FP rounding error though, like +/- 0.000001

I've only tested 3 scenarios though.

I think they might be equivalent. I am traveling this week, but I will test it this weekend.

Confirmed. 60,10,10,10,10 is equivalent to to half ICM/half cev. Wish I'd thought of that before.

cool! seems like STTF produces something useful every now and then

Wow. I am one of a few players here that actually enjoy these Fifty50 games. I have been looking for some kind of strategy talk, but the only discussion that I keep seeing is about the rake.

I need to preface this by saying that I am not a very good poker player, and I am an even worse SNG player. But, I played the $1 10-man Fifty50s and they were very easy.

I have also played 10 man turbo $5 fifty50s. I have played 219 games at $5 and I have maintained 10% ROI. Obviously this is a small sample size, but these have to be somewhat beatable if I can show a profit. I will keep going and let you know my results.

I came here to talk strategy although I hope that I am not talking to myself.

Basic ICM Strategy:
Since the DON strategy appears to be too tight. I wanted to see how much looser would be the "correct" ICM play.

Here is a standard 10 players with equal 10BB stacks. I did a lot of different scenarios, but this example seems to be consistent relative to stack sizes and opponents etc.


DON
150 / 75 ante 15 10 players
No raises, no calls
What Hands would be correct to shove against all average opponents.
Left to Act - Push
9 - 1.8% (JJ+)
8 - 2.1% (JJ+, AKs)
7 - 3.0% (JJ+, AK)
6 - 3.8% (TT+, AK, AQs+)
5 - 5.1% (99+, AQ+)
4 - 6.8% (88+, AJ+)
3 - 11.05 (66+, AT+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs)
2 - 69.8% (too many to bother)
1 - 100% (Any 2)

Fifty50
150 / 75 ante 20 10 players
No raises, no calls
Left to Act - Push
9 - 5.9% (88+, AQ+, AJs+)
8 - 7.4% (88+, AJ+, ATs+, KQs)
7 - 9.2% (66+, AJ+, ATs+, KTs+, QJs)
6 - 15.1% (55+, AT+, A8s+, KJ+, K9s+, , Q9s+, J9s+, T9s)
5 - 32.1% (too many to bother)
4 - 64.7%
3 - 98.2%
2 - 100% (Any 2)
1 - 100% (Any 2)


To summarize:
1) Double or Nothings requires alot more folding. Seems kind of boring.
2) The New Fifty50s needs a lot more action than I had originally expected.