on a related note...how to use these charts?
http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sngs/hune.html

thanks!

Look up your hand in the table and if the shortest player has less than this many BBs it's a push/call, else it's a fold.

Juk

umm...
Nash equilibriums are interdependent, so this chart is perfect if your opponent is using the same chart. However, if you are playing a maniac who never folds HU or a clueless HU nit, you will have to adjust.

Yep, sorry my explanation was a bit meagre and I should have added that you would do better to adjust than just blindly use the chart.

Even against the "maniac who never folds HU" or a "clueless HU nit" though, so long as they are playing push/fold poker the chart will still guarantee that you are at worse 0EV against their strategy and most times +EV because they are making bad mistakes by deviating (ie: the maniac is making bad pushes/calls and the nit bad folds). That's not to say you can't make more by properly adjusting though.

Juk

drzen: The thing that helped me most was first reviewing all of my games even just using default ranges, then each hand I would adjust the range customly to see if that would make the shove -EV/+EV or how much it changed my edge. I would do the same for all-in calls, adjusting shoving ranges, and then moved on to stack sizes. You would be amazed the differences you will see with only slight variations to one or two variable factors

yes, and also 80% of the NE pushes are inexploitable.

Its not hard to figure out what you can shove in spots vs. calling ranges. I think the problem is accurately estimating everyone's calling range. And then there is the oft ignored and more difficult task of estimating your opponent's shove range.

It's not hard to figure out (just use Wiz) but it's hard to remember



I think the necessity of getting either right increases with buyin.

I would like to pursue this, because this is definately where i am. i have downloaded sngo wiz and sgpt. the sngo wiz tutorial was very helpful learned alot. the sgpt video tutorial was kind of fuzzy. i kind of knew what he was talking about, kind of.

i am willing to consistently put the effort in to study and analyze. I guess what i am looking for is a more structured way to spend my time with these tools. what exactly should i do with sngpt and what should i be looking for ?? how do the %s for opponent hand ranges in sngo wiz relate to the hand range notation in sgpt ?? i guess in regards to these two tools i am looking for .. do this.. then this.. look at this.. then do this.. or, is this something that i have to figure out for myself by just fiddling around ?? I am a noob to icm and critically analyzing my game. i basically quit playing to study and improve once i realized that there was so much about sit n gos that i did not know.


Thanks

Lil Jon has a new video?

If Stoxpoker can do vanity searches so can I.

Ok, I need about 14 more people to make a class.

I'm in for that.

I am in also.. for sure.

When I look at this chart I don't really understand what it's saying.

Let's take Q-10 for example. Here is the data for Q-10 from the chart:

Hand N_call N_fold P|call Max Stack for EV > 0

QTo 445 780 0.398126 29.716401

I've done searches and read the FAQ, but I'm still not getting it. Posters have said that Q-10 is either ranked 30th or in the 30th percentile or something to that effect, but I'm not seeing how they get that from this chart.

Any help appreciated.

It tell's you what they are at the top of the page I agree though that if you don't know how the K/S numbers are generated it might seem a bit strange. They are explained in the NLHTAP book, but if you don't have it then probably Ed Miller's explanation will be enough:

http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/q...v-numbers.html

Here is an example to help:

KK 7 1218 0.226177 953.995465
Assume you are HU holding KK in the SB and the smallest of the two remaining stacks is 953.995465BB. This line tells you that you can push all in with your KK, turn it face up for for your opponent to look at and he can only call profitably with 7 of his possible hands (being forced to fold the other 1218). The 7 hands he can call with consist of the 6 combinations of AA and the 1 remaining combination of KK. When called you will win the all-in 22.6177% of the time.

Obviously you aren't gonna push KK with nearly 1000BB, but it does get more useful as you go down the list. For example consider:

98o 841 384 0.394874 10.271257
Now imaging you are shortstacking a NL cash game or are HU at the end of a SNG (ie: where cEV=$EV) and have just 10BB in the SB with the BB covering you. It's folded to you and you are considering if you should push your hand into the BB or not. Well since the K/S number is 10.271257, you can definitely push your hand profitably as even if you were to show your opponent what you had after pushing; he still can't profit from your push.

In reality your hand won't be revealed and he will have to put you on a range of hands which could be alot better than 89o, so this number is kind of a "worst case scenario" and if it's profitable to push using the K/S number; it will always be profitable to push in the real hidden information game. It should be noted though that the K/S number vastly undervalues suited/connector type hands in the real hidden information game and isn't a whole lot of use when multiple people are still left in a SNG (ie: where cEV!=$EV). If you want to improve your HU game, then probably it's more helpful to study the Nash Equilibrium chart instead:

http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sngs/hune.html

Juk

Jonathan Little video @ sngicons i guess.

and lol@DCJ311 xD
WHAT?!
WHAT?!
YEAAAAH!

In regards to studying techniques, I don't believe there is an "easy" answer. Or a specific process. You just have to ask yourself a million "What if?" questions while fiddling with ranges in SNGPT.

What if I was one seat to the left or right?
What if I had three tight players behind?
What if I had 7 bb's here instead of 10 bb's?
What if there were 5 players left instead of 4?
Etc. Etc. Etc.

As time goes by, your instant decisions at the table improve from all the research you've done. I think that's where "feel" comes into play. When you've studied so much that you can quickly digest stack sizes, your seat, handedness, action etc. and just "feel" what the right play is.

The way I use software is to review an entire game in PokerTracker "table" mode with SNGPT open and loaded with that game. I tinker with ranges regarding my push/fold and call/fold decisions. You can also learn a lot about ranges by seeing all the exposed hole cards at this more leisurely pace. You can also take notes at this more leisurely pace and transfer them into your Stars notes file afterwards.

Microbet - If you're serious about a class. I'm all ears.

I am in on the class if you start it.

It would be great if you could make a class and I would definitely like to participate.

Pretty much, if you have less sbs than the number on the right, folding from the sb in all nonbubble situations is clearly bad. It clearly shouldnt be used instead of icm because it has nothing to do with icm. The chart is simply a guideline to let you know when you arent pushing nearly enough. I explain it all nice and well in the videos.

I'm in for a class.

I have a question about this chart.

I'm a little confused. I need to know if I'm reading things correctly. Do the numbers refer to the number of big blinds in your own hand. Therefore if you're heads up and have a K-8 off, you push as long as you have 18 big blinds or less.

And you would call a push with K-8 off if you had 13.8 big blinds or less?

Take J-9 off. The chart says 20+. I'm not quite clear what that means.

If you go by these numbers playing heads up, are you then using an unexploitable strategy?

Thanks for any clarification.

In the push chart, the numbers mean the maximum effective stack you can still push the hand with, making it an inexploitable pushing strategy, some pushes are not inexploitable in a vacuum though.

The calling chart is pretty useless unless you know your opponent is using this NE strategy.

So what does 20+ mean? Does that mean I can push with any size stack or just 20 big blinds or less?

it's almost never a good idea to be pushing more then 15 BB's effective.