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Old 04-04-2008, 02:17 AM   #1
stevenm1267
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do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

was thinking of memorizing this after john little suggested it in his video. are sng power tools better than this chart?

really have to open up my push/fold as i am breakeven over the last 2500 games at the 27's


http://www2.decf.berkeley.edu/~chubukov/rankings.html
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Old 04-04-2008, 03:35 AM   #2
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Re: do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

first move down to the 16s. second, memorizing a chart isn't going to help much. there's too many different situations.
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Old 04-04-2008, 04:51 AM   #3
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Re: do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

eh...it's a good starting place to get an idea of ranges, but finding them in game is a more organic process.
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Old 04-04-2008, 09:26 AM   #4
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Re: do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

Well what do you mean is it better than using SNGPT?

I'm sure this chart was derived from SNGPT to be honest.

There is a lot more to SNGPT than the default stuff they put in the tutorial, you can use the program to make your own charts based on varying situations during gameplay. I made a bunch of my own charts at first, but it wasn't so much memorizing them that helped me, but rather the idea behind them and how they were made. You really start to understand how ranges fare against each other pretty fast after working with it for more than a few hours.
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:21 AM   #5
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Re: do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenm1267 View Post
was thinking of memorizing this after john little suggested it in his video. are sng power tools better than this chart?

really have to open up my push/fold as i am breakeven over the last 2500 games at the 27's


http://www2.decf.berkeley.edu/~chubukov/rankings.html
If you don't know how to use the chart, and don't realize how and when it applies, and how it should fit in with ICM then you need to ditch the chart, drop down in stakes (probably to the $6.50's) and retool your game.
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:27 AM   #6
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Re: do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

This looks like trash, berkeley sucks, and SngWiz looks prettier.
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Old 04-04-2008, 11:07 AM   #7
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Re: do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

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Originally Posted by The Lipo Fund View Post
I'm sure this chart was derived from SNGPT to be honest.
That chart has been around a lot longer than SNGPT, and is in fact a critical part of both SNGPT and SNG Wizard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KoreanBuffet View Post
This looks like trash, berkeley sucks, and SngWiz looks prettier.
No, you suck.


OP: Understanding what is on that chart and how it is derived is way better than memorizing it. There's some good information in there, but knowing the relative S-C rankings of J4o and 53s aren't going to help your day-to-day game.
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Old 04-04-2008, 11:26 AM   #8
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Re: do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

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Originally Posted by KoreanBuffet View Post
This looks like trash, berkeley sucks, and SngWiz looks prettier.
Berkeley owns, you suck, and S-C is just another tool to be applied when ICM isn't a factor (which it always is in a STT (until HU), so modify the rankings accordingly). Personally, SNGWIZ and SNGPT are much more useful tools for me in a STT. Use S-C for MTTs if you must.
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Old 04-04-2008, 12:43 PM   #9
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Re: do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

What John Little video?
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Old 04-04-2008, 03:21 PM   #10
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Re: do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

Everyone used to know all this stuff.

I should teach a class on all this. ICM, Carlson/Sklansky, SNGPT, SNGWizard, Nash Equilibrium.
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Old 04-17-2008, 03:21 PM   #11
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Re: do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

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Everyone used to know all this stuff.

I should teach a class on all this. ICM, Carlson/Sklansky, SNGPT, SNGWizard, Nash Equilibrium.

That would be great microbet. Anything to help me understand and learn to use ICM would be a great help.

I am currently reading colin's book and its starting to make sense but, learning to actually use and manipulate ICM would be great.

I am learning each day but, as of today still cant effectively use I C M software.
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Old 04-17-2008, 04:15 PM   #12
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Re: do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

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Originally Posted by Ashy Knuckles View Post
That would be great microbet. Anything to help me understand and learn to use ICM would be a great help.

I am currently reading colin's book and its starting to make sense but, learning to actually use and manipulate ICM would be great.

I am learning each day but, as of today still cant effectively use I C M software.
Moshman's book is pretty worthless for ICM. DL SNGWIZ, play with it, and read the tutorials on the author's site. If you were to seriously put like 5 hrs a day for 2 weeks into sngwiz, you'd be able to probably beat thru the 27s by folding until you had < 10 BBs and then going into push/fold mode.
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Old 04-17-2008, 05:08 PM   #13
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Re: do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

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Moshman's book is pretty worthless for ICM. DL SNGWIZ, play with it, and read the tutorials on the author's site. If you were to seriously put like 5 hrs a day for 2 weeks into sngwiz, you'd be able to probably beat thru the 27s by folding until you had < 10 BBs and then going into push/fold mode.
I highly doubt he could beat the 27's by folding until he had 10 bbs.
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Old 04-17-2008, 05:16 PM   #14
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Re: do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

Well, maybe Moshman couldn't, but I'm pretty sure I could.
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Old 04-17-2008, 06:29 PM   #15
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Re: do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

What roi over what sample size are you even beating them now.
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Old 04-17-2008, 07:35 PM   #16
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Re: do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

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Originally Posted by The Lipo Fund View Post
Well what do you mean is it better than using SNGPT?

I'm sure this chart was derived from SNGPT to be honest.

There is a lot more to SNGPT than the default stuff they put in the tutorial, you can use the program to make your own charts based on varying situations during gameplay. I made a bunch of my own charts at first, but it wasn't so much memorizing them that helped me, but rather the idea behind them and how they were made. You really start to understand how ranges fare against each other pretty fast after working with it for more than a few hours.
Can I have your charts please?
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Old 04-17-2008, 07:55 PM   #17
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Re: do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

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Originally Posted by CheeseMoney View Post
Moshman's book is pretty worthless for ICM. DL SNGWIZ, play with it, and read the tutorials on the author's site. If you were to seriously put like 5 hrs a day for 2 weeks into sngwiz, you'd be able to probably beat thru the 27s by folding until you had < 10 BBs and then going into push/fold mode.
Okay, I'll bite. I would be willing to put that effort in, but what do you suggest for a course of action, Cheese? What should I be studying for those five hours exactly? I think this is what most people struggle with and I'd like a decent answer from someone who thinks they know it.
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Old 04-17-2008, 11:09 PM   #18
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Re: do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

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Okay, I'll bite. I would be willing to put that effort in, but what do you suggest for a course of action, Cheese? What should I be studying for those five hours exactly? I think this is what most people struggle with and I'd like a decent answer from someone who thinks they know it.
I'm the last person to ask. I'm horrible at making myself review/study. I caught myself shoving J9o with 1600 chips 4 handed at T200 (on the bubble) yesterday and realized that I should probably sit down and play with the thing for a few hours again.

That said, I have taken plenty of time to sit down and make up excel spreadsheets with different chips stacks to get a "feel" for ICM vs. different calling ranges. I play a ton of tables so more often than not I'm just assigning default ranges to opponents. If I see a reg or a loose donk or I have a note, I'll adjust my push/call range accordingly.

Here's a crappy .xls sample of something that I made a long time ago for shoving 3 handed ITM... just an example... sorry things don't format correctly.
Blind / Hero Stack/ SB Stack / SB-Call% / BB Stack / BB Call % / -% I should shove....
200/400/50 6000 4000 20% 33+, A4o+, A2s, KJ+, KTs+ 3500 25% 22+, A2+, Kto+, K8s+, QTs+ 12.8% (44+, A8o+, A7s+, KQs+) BB overcall is 14% (A4s+, A8o+, KJs+, 44+)
300/600/50 6000 4000 20% 33+, A4o+, A2s, KJ+, KTs+ 3500 25% 22+, A2+, Kto+, K8s+, QTs+ 16.3% (33+, A7o+, A4s+, KQ, KJs+)
400/800/50 6000 4000 20% 33+, A4o+, A2s, KJ+, KTs+ 3500 25% 22+, A2+, Kto+, K8s+, QTs+ 42.1% (22+, A2+, K9o+, K3s+, Q9o+, Q5s+, J8o+, J7s+, T8o+, T6s+, 98o+, 96s+, 75s+, 65s+

Adjust all the factors, overcall %, etc. Now make yourself the calling BB to a BTN Shove. Now change stack sizes and make yourself the short stack on the button.

Its been a little while since I've put in long hours studying, but maybe next time I do, I'll put a little thought into setting up some sort of studying structure and then post my results-- won't be anything groundbreaking, but could help the noobs. ZeroPointMachine's recent post was a pretty good example of how to play with SNGWIZ.
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Old 04-17-2008, 11:17 PM   #19
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Re: do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

DRzen, I will tell you as M@D@M@D@D@NE told me

"I will sell them to you for 100k"


And CheeseMoney, I think if someone spent 1 hour a day for a week doing the right things with SNGWiz/PT, their ROI would jump up 3%. There's no doubt that you're right about folding to a positive ROI at 27s knowing ICM even 75%
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Old 04-18-2008, 12:00 AM   #20
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Re: do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

Use SNGPT or SNGWIZ and trade HH's with people. You may have some leaks that both could likely solve.
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Old 04-18-2008, 12:19 AM   #21
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Re: do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

I've created a wordpad file for myself of shoving ranges I have found to be not very exploitable but of course all the different stack sizes behind you change things. Luckily Sippin gives me hand histories as well .
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Old 04-18-2008, 12:25 AM   #22
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Re: do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

Personally I think sklansky chubukov rankings are a lotworse than the nash equilibrium, they assume 76 sooted is being called by 78o and up etc. Basicly its when you can push assuming your opponent can SEE YOUR CARDS AND PLAY PERFECTLY AGAINST YOU.

Yes charts are good for learning heads up, just be looser shoving generally and call tighter and use the "nash equilibrium" headsup chart at holdemresources.net or in mathmatics of poker or kill everyone IMO.

I think if you do some basic thinking about risk reward ratios/fold equity and equity vs his calling hands you can realize why the heads up charts are the way they are, and possibly help you make some broader push fold epiphanies/generalizations as well.

Ashy Knuckles, to learn how to use ICM and ICM software I recommend downloading the free version of sngpt as eastbay's explanation is very thorough and he basicly invented ICM (like Gore invented the internets duh). That helped me get some understand of it at least, oh well.
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Old 04-18-2008, 12:39 AM   #23
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Re: do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

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Originally Posted by The Lipo Fund View Post
DRzen, I will tell you as M@D@M@D@D@NE told me

"I will sell them to you for 100k"
Give me the charts and when their contribution to my profit is 100K, I will give it you. Deal?

Quote:
And CheeseMoney, I think if someone spent 1 hour a day for a week doing the right things with SNGWiz/PT, their ROI would jump up 3%. There's no doubt that you're right about folding to a positive ROI at 27s knowing ICM even 75%
Everyone says do the right thing. No one knows what the right thing actually is. Interesting that.
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Old 04-18-2008, 12:55 AM   #24
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Re: do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

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Everyone says do the right thing. No one knows what the right thing actually is. Interesting that.
I can't tell you what is really right for you. Ya kind of have to figure it out for yourself. I know that I get much better when I play with ICM tools. I try different stuff to keep from getting bored.

I do know that if you sat around and studied icm for 5 hours per day, 5 days a week, for 2 weeks, you would be able to crush STTs far more than most.

For me personally, I get lazy and am guessing I'd have an ROI about 2-3 points higher if I'd just study SNGWIZ for 30 minutes before every session. Tack on another point or two if I got a working hud again. I 30 table a lot, so often I'll make a dumb push on the bubble when I miss a small stack or something-- pretty sure I still make up for it with my hourly but its definitely hard to play my A game all the time. However, I am pretty good about taking notes, so I'm happy about that.

If I end up playing full time, I plan on making myself study for at least 1/2 hour per day before each session.

The main reason that players struggle at low stakes is that they are lazy and have egos. If you study hard, post a lot of hands, like--say--mattie or someone-- and aren't embarrassed to get caught looking stupid once in a while, you'll find out what it takes to beat this game.
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Old 04-18-2008, 01:14 AM   #25
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Re: do a lot of people use this chart for push/fold

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I can't tell you what is really right for you. Ya kind of have to figure it out for yourself. I know that I get much better when I play with ICM tools. I try different stuff to keep from getting bored.
My big problem is in finding patterns. You can't remember every possible setup of stacks, ranges and blinds, so it seems to me you need to work out generalisations if you can and then refine it. But I'm not sure how to find the patterns in the first place. Sometimes I'm looking at a hand and I simply cannot figure out why I should have pushed or why not.

Maybe I need to be better at maths

Quote:
I do know that if you sat around and studied icm for 5 hours per day, 5 days a week, for 2 weeks, you would be able to crush STTs far more than most.
You realise that that doesn't sound like much? Is the intensity you think will work or the amount? If I did three hours for 16 days, would that work the same in your view?

I know this conversation probably sounds very stupid, but trust me, it's helping me a lot.

I have a decent feel for ICM. I understand the principle well and that means you shove basically okay and call basically reasonably. But I don't really have any knowledge of it. I need to acquire it but I'm not sure how. I always feel like I'm just ****ing about with Wiz, rather than acquiring knowledge. Maybe writing out stacks and working out default shoves and calls would be a good way to go for me. Not so that I have charts to work from but so that I mechanically understand how it's working.

Quote:
For me personally, I get lazy and am guessing I'd have an ROI about 2-3 points higher if I'd just study SNGWIZ for 30 minutes before every session. Tack on another point or two if I got a working hud again. I 30 table a lot, so often I'll make a dumb push on the bubble when I miss a small stack or something-- pretty sure I still make up for it with my hourly but its definitely hard to play my A game all the time. However, I am pretty good about taking notes, so I'm happy about that.
My notes all read "retard" I am in total awe of your ability to take notes while 30-tabling!

Quote:
If I end up playing full time, I plan on making myself study for at least 1/2 hour per day before each session.
Cheese, I think that that is a minimum because part of your job will be to make sure that you remain highly skilled.

I am still doing the course, as it were. But if I ever get to where you are, I will be committed to keep studying. Have you considered coaching? That seems to me a good way of learning too, because I find that thinking about how to explain helps me get my thoughts straight.

Quote:
The main reason that players struggle at low stakes is that they are lazy and have egos. If you study hard, post a lot of hands, like--say--mattie or someone-- and aren't embarrassed to get caught looking stupid once in a while, you'll find out what it takes to beat this game.

Well, that's lucky. I study a lot (mostly this forum, Wiz and I read everything I can get my hands on), am still hopeless so have no huge ego and don't mind looking stupid.

The problem with hand posts for me is that so many involve early postflop decisions, which seem almost immaterial to me, or are questions about shoving and calling ranges that should be easily answered in SNG Wiz. I've been answering a lot because it helps get straight what you know and don't know, and I like to help players who are struggling at the bottom like I am, but I rarely agonise over postflop decisions. I mean, let's face it, the answer is so often "just shove" or "just fold"
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