I'm in a SNG, 8 players remain, all 8 have 30BB, one player raises 2.5BB; range top 10% and will Call a re-raise allin With 99+AQo+ and get 2 callers; both have range 66-99/AT-AQ and would Call an allin With 99/AQ.

The blinds's will Call an allin With 99+AQo+.

I have 88 on BTN, and I can't profitable re-raise allin and setmining doesn't look justifiable, but I get 4-to-1 and I have position. Should I Call? Would very much appreciate an explanation for Your thoughts on this.

I don't understand what you mean by 'range top 10%'. You haven't told us the sample size that your basing these ranges on. You'v also left out crucial information such as position and most importantly the blind level.
On the basis of the limited information I would call. Insufficient odds to setmine is frequently cited as a reason to fold pps. There is other ways you can win the hand post flop. Don't fold a mid pp ip to an open 30bb deep.

You usually want players you are setmining against to have stacks of 20x+ the size of the raise you are calling to see a flop in order for the setmine to be profitable. Also it is better to be in a multi-way pot so you have more chances of stacking someone when that 8 hits.

In this case I'd say it depends on what you think of the blinds. If one of them is likely to raise you should lean towards folding. If both of them seem weak (fold/call but not raise) then I think you can call here. It's close, I'm not sure.

I think the fact that you are up against (at least) 3 opponents could make up for the less-than-ideal setmine odds. If the preflop raiser has any broadways and connects with the board you will most likely get his 30bb + the 7bb in preflop dead money. If both the callers are loose passive calling stations, you might get extra money from them or perhaps stack 2 players. I don't think calling can be a big mistake and neither can folding. You just can't 3-bet.

Correct any mistakes:

- If he isn't confident in his postflop play then where the open raise and calls came from doesn't really matter because he is looking primarily for the setmine. I mean the earlier the guy opened 2.5x the better. You want him to have AA/KK/QQ/AK because it's more likely you're getting paid when the 8 hits. When the 8 doesn't hit you're folding most of the time anyway 8 (hats off to you if you're confident enough to play 88 against 3 players that are most likely passive calling stations with likely overcards on the board - I'm not being sarcastic, I just don't feel I can pull it off +EV in the long run).

- There are usually 9 x 1500 = 13500 chips in play in a 9-max SNG. He said there are 8 players left and each player has around 30bb, so the blinds at the moment are 25/50 (8 x 30 = 240 blinds are in play, 13500 chips : 240 = ~50). But why does this matter? You are interested in the stack sizes measured in blinds, not the blind level measured in chips, right?

Information he left out I find more important:

- stakes?
- VPIP/PFR of the 2 callers (are they calling stations and likely to pay you off?)
- stats of the blinds (how aggressive are they?)

@OP

You're getting direct odds of 4:1 , on the BTN, and calling less than 10% of your stack (assuming you also have 30bb).
I'm calling here hoping to hit a set or, as Sharky said, maybe steal post flop.

The ranges you've assigned to each player look like they've come from some default chart.
I doubt they're actually realistic without a large sample size on each player.

With a large sample on each player at the table ( VPIP/PFR/F23bet) you could possibly build a case for shoving - there's nearly a 1/3 of your stack in the middle when it gets to you.
Minus that info > call


@ mrrnnn

Stakes aren't that important - the math's the same regardless so the optimum play doesn't really alter.

The 2 callers aren't showing much strength - they didn't raise so have effectively capped their range. I'd assume at least 1 of them is also set mining and, if they also miss their set, then there is certainly a chance to steal.

The stats of the blinds do matter, but if one of the blinds wakes up with a monster and pushes then you can fold - no harm done. I doubt you'll find many players aggressive enough to bluff shove into 4 people.

I always ask these questions because I'm baffled again and again by the circus that is microstakes. He didn't mention any HUD stats, so the assumption that at least one of the callers is setmining is as valid as the assumption that the BB's stats are 70/40 and he is attacking anything and everything with almost half the deck and if that were the case I'd rather spend my 2.5bb elsewhere. You simply can't know.

Here is a list of stats of a random $1 9-max SNG table I have running right now. This is over 10 hands (not a lot, I know, but it is still enough to give you a feel of what the player pool often looks like at these stakes).

40/20
20/0
50/0
80/20
50/10
20/10
30/10
30/10

(No kidding, these are actual stats.)

With my postflop skills I'm not maneuvering 88 on a board with overcards against this bunch. The primary and often sole way of me making money here is implied odds which is why I asked about the callers' stats. With these stats villains are having Ax/Kx/Qx/Jx/Tx much more often than low pocket pairs so I'm pretty uneasy when the flop has any overcards.

I can understand the case for shoving as you mentioned and I can also understand relying on your postflop skills (which I lack ) to win the pot.

Thx for your very good and very well formulated answer. All effective stacks are 30 BB's, so I guess it's the same wether the blind-level are 10 or 1000.

Range top 10% means ATo+,KQo+,77+.

Regarding samplesize; I dont have any, since I was just wanting to create a simple situation; so I could get some generally better understanding of what to do in similar situations.

Hero is on button (btn). Opponents positions are not important, since it's their handranges that are vital for our decisions.

Anyway I've done some thoughts on this and I actually agree with your decision here.


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Thx for your very detailed response. I really appreciate that.

The blinds are weak and passive. So I also think a call here is a little better than folding. We're also getting 4-to-1, which is half the way to the 7.5-to-1 we need for hitting that set.


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Regarding stakes; it's at $15 buy-in. 9-max sng.

Let's assume both callers have VPIP 15/ PFR 10. (Forgot to take screenshot).

One of them was actually a calling station. And I guess that makes our call more tempting.


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Thx for your very good response. It's tempting to shove here, but they need to be very tight for that to be profitable with our hand.


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[QUOTE=mrrnnn;51755983]Correct any mistakes:

- If he isn't confident in his postflop play then where the open raise and calls came from doesn't really matter because he is looking primarily for the setmine. I mean the earlier the guy opened 2.5x the better. You want him to have AA/KK/QQ/AK because it's more likely you're getting paid when the 8 hits. When the 8 doesn't hit you're folding most of the time anyway 8 (hats off to you if you're confident enough to play 88 against 3 players that are most likely passive calling stations with likely overcards on the board - I'm not being sarcastic, I just don't feel I can pull it off +EV in the long run).

13500 chips : 240 = ~50). But why does this matter? You are interested in the stack sizes measured in blinds, not the blind level measured in chips, right?

Op shouldn't play 88s in this spot primarily to setmine. This short he doesn't have proper implied odds when he hits a set. Setmining is not a reason to play a pp in short stacked poker. Op should call with 88s as its just the best hand a lot and should never be folded ip to an open mid way through a sng. Villain can have an array of unpaired broadway hands, Ax hands and even lower pps in his range. Unless I misread the op the two remaining players in the blinds are yet to act so the hand may be heads up not 3/4 way.

Personally I'm not folding most of the time when an 8 doesn't hit. I'm navigating my way through the hand on the basis of villains actions post, bet sizing and board texture.

The blind level is relevant as players adjust their ranges as the blind levels progress irrespective of stack sizes. A utg raise in the first blind level can signify a drastically different range than the same raise in the fifth blind level. The blind levels also increase exponentially as the levels continue. For example the increase from blind level 1-2 is less than the increase from 5 - 6.

I'm also just assuming the opponents are straightforward and not capable of doing anything fancy. Just to keep the situation as simple as possible.

[QUOTE=SharkytheFish;51757885] Regarding the blind Level, I think you have a very good point here. Never thought of it that way. Blinds are 25-50 With ante. Anyway it seems we all somehow agree that we should usually play the hand. Nice to see all the reasons for and against. Thx a lot guys

I just created a New thread continuing somehow on this topic; "probability of flop textures".

I see. I never thought about this, thanks.