6k post: open-shoving 15 BBs from the SB for fun and profit

[JoeSchmo]

Originally Posted by Rounder2k8

I am at work and can't really read this into detail but is this strategy or whatever meant for the bubble only? i'm guessing so because i just can't see this being good with more players than that. If so, are you doing this all the time no matter their calling range? Sorry it's just the first time i've heard of something like this.

It's not meant just for the bubble. Play with SNG Wiz or whatever. Slim is stating that pushing is +EV here and while other options are debatable, pushing > folding.

[Slim Pickens]

Originally Posted by Rounder2k8

I am at work and can't really read this into detail but is this strategy or whatever meant for the bubble only? i'm guessing so because i just can't see this being good with more players than that. If so, are you doing this all the time no matter their calling range? Sorry it's just the first time i've heard of something like this.

It actually gets more interesting farther from the bubble. It is most likely to apply to the mid-game where stacks are in the 10-20 BB range.

To be clear, every BB opponent has three ranges of interest here:

1. calling a big open-push
2. pushing over a standard raise
3. flat-calling a standard raise

I'm intentionally not dealing with the third one because it needs special treatment. Figuring out the first two is how to determine whether a standard raise is more profitable than a push, even if you call 100% of those pushes.

[Rounder2k8]

ok i'll look into this deeper when i get home, thanks and very interesting post .

[mjcace]

Congrats....Thanks for a great post

[IFoldPktOnes]

Nice post Slim. I shove a certain small range of hands at ~15bbs, it's one of those little things that I don't like talking about because it would be pretty annoying if regs started doing it to me.

[Slim Pickens]

Originally Posted by IFoldPktOnes

I shove a certain small range of hands at ~15bbs, it's one of those little things that I don't like talking about because it would be pretty annoying if regs started doing it to me.

It is nice when people skip unexploitable pushes, but they don't come up that often 15 BBs deep. As long as people aren't doing something clever to expand their profitable hand range, it shouldn't be a problem.

[eurythmech]

I will start to pay more attention to your posts.

[The Venetian]

I've always been a big proponent of the gigantic SB shove, but it's very nice to see the math behind it and how opponent call ranges work with different types of hands. It makes sense as I see it, but I wouldn't have anticipated the different directions 44 and 99 take there. I could probably do this, but seeing as you may already have, I assume there is a point prior to opponent call being 100% that the 44 line turns back up again, albeit probably never above 0.0%, right?

Either way, very nice post.

[TruFloridaGator]

Originally Posted by eurythmech

I will start to pay more attention to your posts.

Why were you not before?

[eurythmech]

Originally Posted by TruFloridaGator

Why were you not before?

It's hard to remember who the few top quality posters are.

[Slim Pickens]

Originally Posted by The Venetian

I could probably do this, but seeing as you may already have, I assume there is a point prior to opponent call being 100% that the 44 line turns back up again, albeit probably never above 0.0%, right?

For 44, that would be the point where the hand ranking system you are using starts containing a lot of hands with 4's, 3's, and 2's in them. The absolute scale and y-position relative to 0.0% vs fold is a fairly complicated function of stacks/blinds/payout, but it's the same thing you're probably used to estimating anyway. There's nothing specific to force it to either side of 0.0%. I don't really think anyone calls wider than about 60%, do they?

[TruFloridaGator]

Originally Posted by eurythmech

It's hard to remember who the few top quality posters are.

It's pretty hard to forget that SP is one of them, if not the best when it comes to the math/theory.

[Finnisher]

Thanks. I like the fun and staying out of trouble even if it costs me a little part. And it's also interesting to see what kinda ranges regs start calling with after you've done this a couple of times.

[k4b4l]

It's just an hand versus a hand range winning %.

[Slim Pickens]

Originally Posted by k4b4l

It's just an hand versus a hand range winning %.

I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say but there's a huge difference between shoving KK into {JJ+,AK} and shoving 66 into any two cards, even if the hand winning % versus the range is the same.