6k post: open-shoving 15 BBs from the SB for fun and profit - Page 2 - STT Poker Strategy

jmill · 02-26-2008, 09:01 AM

Slim

DDBeast · 02-26-2008, 10:48 AM

I definitely learned something.

darinvg · 02-26-2008, 11:11 AM

Sweet post!
Can we farther this discussion to include a crappy hand like A2? This is a hand that is too strong to fold but shoving this many chips seems bad too. Raise folding seems like it can be really exploitable since you're setting up a perfect size pot for the BB to reshove. I've also been experimenting with the limp lead but some of the good regulars will catch on to that.

Dr_Jeckyl_00 · 02-26-2008, 11:31 AM

Nice post Slim.

You really need a good read that BB is LAGgy and will raise. I think more often they call, putting you OOP on the flop.

I guess that you probably need to shove most flops if BB calls, which I think is more likely than restealing?

So as with all tools in our arsenal, this is not cookie cutter, it is completely player dependant...

Slim Pickens · 02-26-2008, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ger664

Point to note is that against good regulars, they will probably eventually adjust and it may become expliotable when they start to tighten there re-shove range and open there spite call range.

Against unknowns and small stakes players this good information to have at hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSH06

Yeah but you're also still going to be raise/folding other hands, so it's going to be harder to exploit then you're making it out to be. It's not like you're only going to be standard raising hands you're calling with.

Right, the raise/call 100% line is the limiting case and it's still more profitable, so all you have to do is figure out when raise/fold with some hands is even better. It probably involves a very crappy hand and a predictable TAG BB. My thought is this works (relative to other plays) better at higher stakes where you can have a better idea of players' preflop ranges.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little John

i like the standard raise with KQs vs a lot of opponents because it plays so well postflop. and vs a lot of opponentes, a call is a lot more likely than a push preflop. you can still profitably c-bet an ace high flop, and if you hit a king or queen your hand is a bit disguised and you can get value out of middle pair hands (and of course top pair weak kicker).

44 is such crap postflop i'm wondering if pushing preflop for 15 bb is a better play than my current mix of completing and/or standard raising.

It's definitely good to have a variable range against opponents who will notice. If people are getting really bold looking you up with Ax-high on ragged flops, 44 starts playing better, but it's difficult to play in most cases. That's why I prefer to open-shove all A3/44-type hands, and protect that with occasionally giving up some value by open-shoving AA/KK/AK. I agree about the value of KQ in situations where you can joyfully stack decent one-pair hands, which is pretty much every situation where all of this applies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by darinvg

Can we farther this discussion to include a crappy hand like A2? This is a hand that is too strong to fold but shoving this many chips seems bad too. Raise folding seems like it can be really exploitable since you're setting up a perfect size pot for the BB to reshove. I've also been experimenting with the limp lead but some of the good regulars will catch on to that.

A2 is very similar to 44 in that regard. Qualitatively, few resteal hands are dominated by A2 and most are flipping or even ahead, so we can expect the $EV difference vs. range drops monotonically. I've found that's an excellent way to quickly evaluate hands for this play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr_Jeckyl_00

You really need a good read that BB is LAGgy and will raise. I think more often they call, putting you OOP on the flop.

I guess that you probably need to shove most flops if BB calls, which I think is more likely than restealing?

Flop play is way more dependent on your exact stack size than preflop. With 9 BBs, you can basically make a standard raise and shove any flop you see and not worry too much about it. With 15 BB, there is a lot more opponent-specific hand reading you have to do because the implied odds you give BB are much better for him. Combating this means checking some flops when you hit, and sometimes getting your stack in very light.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgunnip

imo the fun part of the title is the most underrated part of the entire post. pushing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>folding/calling/other raise in funEV.

Shoving is quite fun. It's also fun if you can quickly type "TARPED AGAIN!" in the chat window when the A6o you just tricked into re-stealing incorrectly is busy sucking out on your ATo.

The prize for finding the big mistake in the calculations goes to.... me. I put 6-max in the header but it's actually a 50/30/20 payout with 9k chips.

Austiger · 02-26-2008, 12:42 PM

Great post. I'd be much more likely to make pushes like this against regs than unknowns. A reg is already going to know your pushing ranges at the higher blind levels so pushing here won't affect metagame. When I've got an unknown in the BB, I might want to pass up the more marginal ones here early (I'm not saying A9 is marginal, but maybe A6 would be,) so as to avoid him expanding his calling range on me, even to the point of spite-calling, when we get to the higher levels where pushing can be much more profitable.

xPeru · 02-26-2008, 02:19 PM

Great post Slim, congrats on 6k quality posts

I often think we are not creative enough in our advice in this forum, but this is the perfect counter example to my criticism.

I like to think that we have several options in this posn from the SB. Shove, 2.5-3BB, half stack, or limp. Generally we only talk about the shove or standard raise, but in MTTs I often use the other bet sizes. A half stack bet generally gets you the FE of a shove, but if you have the chips, you can take the option to get away. The limp is a great safe stealing mechanism, 1st, if you don't get raised, then it's unlikely villain has a monster, 2ndly, you can lead the flop for 1BB and generally take it down. If you get reraised, you're only out 2BB, which again stack and opponent dependent, is a tool which has its place. I'd love to see your views on the necessary conditions for using these alternatives in STTs. All the best.

darinvg · 02-26-2008, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xPeru

Great post Slim, congrats on 6k quality posts

I often think we are not creative enough in our advice in this forum, but this is the perfect counter example to my criticism.

I like to think that we have several options in this posn from the SB. Shove, 2.5-3BB, half stack, or limp. Generally we only talk about the shove or standard raise, but in MTTs I often use the other bet sizes. A half stack bet generally gets you the FE of a shove, but if you have the chips, you can take the option to get away. The limp is a great safe stealing mechanism, 1st, if you don't get raised, then it's unlikely villain has a monster, 2ndly, you can lead the flop for 1BB and generally take it down. If you get reraised, you're only out 2BB, which again stack and opponent dependent, is a tool which has its place. I'd love to see your views on the necessary conditions for using these alternatives in STTs. All the best.

The extra large raise/fold doesn't sound like a good option; however, the limp lead is something I think works pretty well.

Slim Pickens · 02-26-2008, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xPeru

I like to think that we have several options in this posn from the SB. Shove, 2.5-3BB, half stack, or limp. Generally we only talk about the shove or standard raise, but in MTTs I often use the other bet sizes. A half stack bet generally gets you the FE of a shove, but if you have the chips, you can take the option to get away. The limp is a great safe stealing mechanism, 1st, if you don't get raised, then it's unlikely villain has a monster, 2ndly, you can lead the flop for 1BB and generally take it down. If you get reraised, you're only out 2BB, which again stack and opponent dependent, is a tool which has its place. I'd love to see your views on the necessary conditions for using these alternatives in STTs. All the best.

I didn't address limping not because it isn't a good play, but only because it doesn't lend itself to the same analysis raising and shoving do. It's definitely a good idea to limp-minbet flop with a wide range of hands some fraction of the time... opponent-dependent... and so on. In any case, it probably wins the same pot more often than a preflop minraise against any opponent.

As for a half-stack raise, I think the idea of raising that much and folding to a push or trying to fold a flop is fairly piss-poor. It is the kind of play bad "pros" use to justify creating their own pot odds and then ignoring them to make bad heroic folds. A far better idea is raising 1/3 of the limiting stack. Depending on your hand, the 2:1 immediate pot odds with no implied odds is about the easiest possible situation to handle either facing a preflop shove or seeing a flop. There, you could correctly get away from a garbage hand preflop after making a profitable steal attempt. You can also effectively stop-n-go a flop or trap/catch a bluff if you hit. A 1/2-stack raise makes the pot size such that everyone's always getting at least 3:1, no one thinks they have, or actually has, much folding equity. The hand plays pretty much like an open-shove anyway except sometimes you coax a bad player into playing correctly against you.

**Pudge714** · 02-26-2008, 03:12 PM

Nice post, but I am a little confused what the y-axis is on the graph. Is it the difference between raise calling and shoving or the EV of open shoving?

Slim Pickens · 02-26-2008, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pudge714

Nice post, but I am a little confused what the y-axis is on the graph. Is it the difference between raise calling and shoving or the EV of open shoving?

It is the difference between folding and shoving. The shoving difference equals raise/calling when you call 100% of BB's shoves.

xPeru · 02-26-2008, 05:12 PM

Thanks Slim, what I was thinking about with the half stack raise was really the "go and go", useful in MTTs, but I agree I haven't found a place for it in STTs.

guitarizt · 02-26-2008, 05:34 PM

I feel like such a donk. So in the typical micro sng game I can just shove 44+, A9+ bvb with 16bb? I like I just found a cheat code or something.

**TruFloridaGator** · 02-26-2008, 06:28 PM

lol, guit. Welcome to the real world

Rounder2k8 · 02-26-2008, 07:30 PM

I am at work and can't really read this into detail but is this strategy or whatever meant for the bubble only? i'm guessing so because i just can't see this being good with more players than that. If so, are you doing this all the time no matter their calling range? Sorry it's just the first time i've heard of something like this.