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.50 6 max JJ on BTN 13 BB deep .50 6 max JJ on BTN 13 BB deep

07-08-2015 , 09:37 AM
Hey guys,

I actually have two questions about this hand:

1) In this hand I was doubting about open-shoving JJ preflop for about 13 BB, which of course is definitely +EV and the easy option. However, I think raising might be better since it can induce 3bets from worse hands that otherwise would fold versus a shove, such as the lower PP's (55,66) and ATo, KJs kinda hands. However, once getting called JJ does not play great post. What do you think about minraising-calling compared to openshoving?

2) As played, I openraised and got called by the BB, who was decently playing, also had more tables with him. Stats were 26/19, 82% fold to steal. After his check I did not cbet because I think I am only getting called by K's and maybe FD's. Should I cbet nonetheless, intending to win the pot and 'protecting' myself against FD's , A's and Q's? Turn I decided to call because his bet could be a steal after my missed cbet. Any thoughts?



    Poker Stars, $3.19 Buy-in (80/160 blinds, 20 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 4 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37016129

    Hero (BTN): 2,022 (12.6 bb)
    SB: 1,823 (11.4 bb)
    BB: 2,437 (15.2 bb)
    CO: 2,718 (17 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is BTN with J J
    CO folds, Hero raises to 320, SB folds, BB calls 160

    Flop: (800) K 8 4 (2 players)
    BB checks, Hero checks

    Turn: (800) 6 (2 players)
    BB bets 320, Hero calls 320

    River: (1,440) A (2 players)
    BB checks, Hero checks

    Spoiler:
    Results: 1,440 pot
    Final Board: K 8 4 6 A
    Hero mucked J J and lost (-660 net)
    BB showed Q K and won 1,440 (780 net)



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    .50 6 max JJ on BTN 13 BB deep Quote
    07-08-2015 , 11:06 PM
    I'd prefer a MR, played fine post IMO, nh
    .50 6 max JJ on BTN 13 BB deep Quote
    07-18-2015 , 03:59 PM
    I open shoved this hand a lot but when i got called i was either flipping, or way behind, rarely way ahead,,, iv been thinking it might be more gto if i only open shove AA,KK,QQ ill repost how it worked for me
    .50 6 max JJ on BTN 13 BB deep Quote
    07-18-2015 , 10:24 PM
    I'm not sure if it's right or not, but I fire the flop. I want to charge draws and it's hard to make top pair so I'm not wanting to be scared of it. I double barrell that turn if checked to as well. Double barrells should make that River pretty innocuous, but I would probably check behind. I can't see much value from a river bet if checked to here.

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    .50 6 max JJ on BTN 13 BB deep Quote
    07-20-2015 , 04:01 PM
    I'd raise slightly more pre, like 2.2x-2.5x.

    Flop is tough. I think I like betting the flop then shoving the turn. I'd have to calc it out, but it seems like you're ahead of the calling range on that flop.
    .50 6 max JJ on BTN 13 BB deep Quote
    07-21-2015 , 12:03 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Drrr.Gonzo
    I open shoved this hand a lot but when i got called i was either flipping, or way behind, rarely way ahead,,, iv been thinking it might be more gto if i only open shove AA,KK,QQ ill repost how it worked for me
    1) No
    2) Why would you want to play GTO in a $3.50 game that's almost always 5+ fish
    .50 6 max JJ on BTN 13 BB deep Quote
    07-23-2015 , 06:16 AM
    Could c-bet ~t350 for value from 8x, flush draws, A highs depending on villain's post-flop tendencies.
    .50 6 max JJ on BTN 13 BB deep Quote
    07-27-2015 , 05:17 AM
    acb is right about gto.
    If you aren't a high stakes pro in tough games against players who understand gto, you literally don't need to know what it is either.
    In low stakes games v weak players what you need to know is:
    * why are they weak?
    * what can i do to maximally exploit this? HINT:the answer is not play gto!!

    Weak players are weak because they make mistakes, often very predictable ones, like being a calling station.

    If you ignore this and say use a balanced betting range v the calling station you are missing tons of value with hands than could get (not so thin) value (which there will be a lot of combo's of) and you'll unsuccesfully try to bluff hands (in the name of balance/gto w/e) and lose money with these hands.

    Re this hand.
    If the flop comes AKQ (Horrid flop for JJ ov) and it checks down and villain show T9 to lose:
    a) this hand is NEVER posted.
    b) Hero feels the 2x was the right play because he won 1 more bb than if villain folds T9 to a shove.
    So just because the villain flopped a pair in this instance, hero is now questioning if he played the hand right.
    If you think about it, this is a bit like saying villain bet AA so you should have folded JJ pre.
    Don't be result oriented.
    When villain flats with KT (which he defo will, and likelt worse) and the flop comes 38T, you are gonna get all the chips in and feel like the boss.

    Re postflop, What would you do with 99 here, and what would you do with QQ? ( on K84 as in OP)
    Once you have answered those and why you would cbet or not cbet those hands on this board, JJ will become easier to think about.
    .50 6 max JJ on BTN 13 BB deep Quote
    07-27-2015 , 05:22 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Drrr.Gonzo
    I open shoved this hand a lot but when i got called i was either flipping, or way behind, rarely way ahead,,, iv been thinking it might be more gto if i only open shove AA,KK,QQ ill repost how it worked for me
    Drrr, I think you would benefit from gaining a btter understanding of what GTO means. You are using it in the wrong context atm.
    You say GTO when you clearly mean most profitable. They are NOT the same thing.
    If you can make more money by ope shoving AA for 13bb than by 2xing the I'll eat my hat.
    I have never eaten a hat. Doubt I'll need to start anytime soon.
    .50 6 max JJ on BTN 13 BB deep Quote

          
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