$114: JJ - MTT Poker Strategy - Multi Table Tournament Poker Forum

Unknown villain. Bet? Now what?

Poker Stars $105+$9 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t50/t100 Blinds - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

dasl1957 (UTG+1): t1525
allconjectur (MP1): t1085
cashfows22 (MP2): t1480
DickieBean (CO): t2070
bagger15 (BTN): t2190
scossett (SB): t1435
magnorum (BB): t2320
Hero (UTG): t1395

Pre Flop: Hero is UTG with J

Hero raises to t250, 3 folds, DickieBean calls t250, 2 folds, magnorum calls t150

Flop: (t800) 8

(3 players)
magnorum checks, Hero checks, DickieBean bets t300, magnorum folds, Hero?

Quote

07-27-2008 , 06:14 PM

ZonaAlumn

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,764

I lead out. As played, I push.

Quote

07-27-2008 , 06:16 PM

Doublez-Down

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 7,242

Way above my BI, but I just shove p/f.

Quote

07-27-2008 , 06:17 PM

DaN_05

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,886

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doublez-Down

Way above my BI, but I just shove p/f.

+1 if it's any use.

Quote

07-27-2008 , 06:39 PM

jcawley

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 2,583

have to agree darvin, UTG i shove here as with all to act, playing a flop with these stack sizes//pot size is pretty sick. shoving pf is probably best. from CO/BTN i would raise though.

Quote

07-27-2008 , 06:42 PM

Luisgallo

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 2,876

I was about to write to fold...then thinking at the betting size I don't really think he has a Q, I think 99/TT would play like this.

I would probably shove.

Quote

07-27-2008 , 06:43 PM

_Towelie_

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,771

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZonaAlumn

I lead out. As played, I push.

This. And I prefer your 250 open to a shove fwiw.

Quote

07-27-2008 , 06:43 PM

Luisgallo

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 2,876

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doublez-Down

Way above my BI, but I just shove p/f.

Shoving JJ is so weak...

Quote

07-27-2008 , 06:52 PM

suzzer99

Save the Cheerleader, Save the World

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 99,984

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luisgallo

Shoving JJ is so weak...

So is betting 250 and getting 4 callers. I'd make it 300 pre. And lead flop I guess.

Quote

07-27-2008 , 07:00 PM

#10

Staafy

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,837

i think you either need to make it like 225 PF or just shove.

Quote

07-27-2008 , 07:18 PM

#11

ICMIZER 3 Representative

Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 4,651

Id rather bet/fold 400 this board then shove over that bet.
Pushing is weak but its clear +EV, playing 4 way pot is not clear +EV at all oop with jacks.

Quote

07-27-2008 , 07:20 PM

#12

zaxx19

banned

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 5,045

Quote:

Originally Posted by Staafy

i think you either need to make it like 225 PF or just shove.

Im very new to STT play and play well beneath you but could you please clarif/explain why raising to 225 is a profitable play here...

Is it an attempt to tempt a potential reraiser....or is it a way of making the flop pot heads up a bit more manageable size-wise?

I dont really love a open push but short of raising 330 I cant think of another way to play it...cant limp at these levels and hope for someone to walk into that trap...iunno hard spot.

Quote

07-27-2008 , 08:04 PM

#13

Jakejackjake

banned

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 4,340

If i'm going to shove im going to limp reraise like i would with aces. If people are calling down with worse hands then JJ to an all in at a 114$ table then i need to play those tables

Quote

07-27-2008 , 08:31 PM

#14

dr spaceman

enthusiast

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 71

bet the flop so you know where you are, if he raises or calls youre more than likely beat, if he folds, well you win.

Quote

07-27-2008 , 10:38 PM

#15

Little John

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,596

this table is not loaded with regulars but in general you cant open shove 14 bb's from ug L4 at the 114's. in all honesty, i can't remember one decent player doing it in the last 6 months. i think most regulars will quickly learn his ranges if he does that and he will be very exploitable.

as for the hand postflop, bet/folding and bet/calling (depending on action) seem close to me.

Quote

07-27-2008 , 10:54 PM

#16

darinvg

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2,569

Yea, shoving 14BBs w/ JJ can't be good.
Isn't any kind of bet going to commit me?

Quote

07-27-2008 , 11:13 PM

#17

AMT

Charlie Brown of MTTs

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 17,745

Little John,

Open Shoving JJ utg with 14bb's is likely unexploitable, or not far from it. Whether it's the best play or not in this particular spot is up for debate (I happen to like the open pf>shove here personally), but I don't agree with that blanket assessment given the stack sizes at all.

To those saying shove the flop,

Why, in your opinion, do you believe shoving the flop as played to be better than flatting [and presumably not planning on folding]?

Quote

07-27-2008 , 11:16 PM

#18

darinvg

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2,569

Shoving JJ should certainly be exploitable but raising should give us much greater value.

Quote

07-27-2008 , 11:23 PM

#19

IFoldPktOnes

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 2,374

Open shoving that at any stakes is losing value imo. I would consider it as a leak.

I'm not sure what to do on the flop readless. But I think amt is on to something, if you decide to get it in you should probably just call it down.

Quote

07-27-2008 , 11:28 PM

#20

AMT

Charlie Brown of MTTs

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 17,745

for the record I was just speaking to LJ saying you'd get exploited in saying that it's unexploitable. While I don't fully agree with pocket1's saying it's a leak to *ever* shove this with approximately this stack situation at any buy in, I do agree generally there are more profitable lines to take.

Quote

07-27-2008 , 11:43 PM

#21

IFoldPktOnes

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 2,374

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMT

It's not that it's an exploitable shove in terms of being -EV. It's more that you are telegraphing your hand strength to other regs at the table. And if I have a note on a nitty reg that says "shoves AK utg 15 BBs", then it is pretty obvious what they have when they 3x raise with the same stacks.

At lower buy-ins the exploitability stuff in these situations doesn't matter, you just lose a lot of value with JJ here because players reshove lighter than they call a shove (either that or they flatcall wide and spew postflop).

Quote

07-27-2008 , 11:49 PM

#22

ICMIZER 3 Representative

Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 4,651

Hmm you can vary your play a little to keep regs guessing by shoving sometimes in those spots and raising too. Anyway I wouldnt be too worried about getting exploited by regs when you vpip from utg with 15 blinds. Your tight open range does the work for you here. Shoving just loses value against donks who reshove A6s over or 77.

Quote

07-28-2008 , 12:12 AM

#23

Jakejackjake

banned

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 4,340

You will not be exploitable. You will be doing this with all big pairs when you are shortstacked at some point and not at other points. Shoving one or two times will show them nothing. Especially if everyone folds

Also Q some donks still ninja call you with the sevens like its the best move of all time.

Quote

07-28-2008 , 12:33 AM

#24

Pudge714

Modding All Day

Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 39,104

I think I just open shove the flop with pot behind you have the best hand a ton. As played I shove because the other guy can be bluffing or betting 99 or 89 or w/e.

Quote

07-28-2008 , 09:23 AM

#25

Staafy

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,837

Quote:

Originally Posted by zaxx19

Is it an attempt to tempt a potential reraiser....or is it a way of making the flop pot heads up a bit more manageable size-wise?

I.

I love to hear your thought process on this, because a lot of people say that and it doesn't make any sence to me whatsoever?

Why would you be more inclined to shove over a small open then over a large one? I would be much more likely to shove over a big one.

Last edited by Staafy; 07-28-2008 at 09:33 AM.

Quote

Page 1 of 2

First

1 2

Last

Post Reply Subscribe

...

Page 1 of 2

First

1 2

Last