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Old 01-28-2017, 12:50 PM   #1
MindMischief
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River Decision with player behind

6-handed $.25-$.50 LHE Online.
Typical micro stakes game, but no reads on opponents yet.

UTG raises. I'm next in HJ with KsQh and call (?). This call seems borderline to me.

Cutoff calls. BB calls. (8 bb)

Flop is Jd 8c 7s and gets checked around.

Turn is Tc (4 BB).

UTG leads. I call. CO calls. (7 BB)

River is Qd.

UTG leads. With player behind I fold.

I feel like I played this hand too passively. Potentially could have taken the lead pre-flop. Also potentially raised the turn. With no players behind on the river, I think this is a shrug-call.

Thanks for thoughts!
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Old 01-28-2017, 01:52 PM   #2
Bob148
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Re: River Decision with player behind

I'd either 3 bet or fold preflop depending on how I felt about the raiser and the players behind.

As played flop and turn are good.

As as played I'd call the river.
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Old 01-28-2017, 02:25 PM   #3
Garwin
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Re: River Decision with player behind

Without reads, I 3-bet this as a default pre-flop

As played and w/o reads I call river too.
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Old 01-28-2017, 04:30 PM   #4
MindMischief
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Re: River Decision with player behind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
I'd either 3 bet or fold preflop depending on how I felt about the raiser and the players behind.
Yes I tend to agree with this approach, and tend to lean towards folding. I knew when I did it that flat calling seemed too weak-passive with KQo. It's ahead of a lot of an UTG opening range, but often dominated and put in tricky spots too. I just remember something from SSHE about even in small stakes games against a raise, the only offsuit holdings we should typically play are AKo and potentially AQo depending on the game. It feels a bit tight to fold it, but I just don't think it can be that bad and losing too much value by mucking it pre.

I think turn call is perfectly fine. UTG has some 9s in his range (99, A9s, K9s, maybe even as weak as Q9s raises there), but he certainly doesn't have to have one and I have 7 outs to a redraw if he does.

It does seem like most top pair hands bet that flop (AJ, KJs, QJs, JTs), so what is he betting the turn with? Looks a lot like a 9, maybe random two pair. The bet feels very polarized, like a gin gutshot straight hit or a very weak defensive bet.

I also thought a K or Q on the river could potentially win the pot if it was the latter.

However, once the player behind me calls the turn, AND the turn better leads into two players again after getting called twice, it didn't seem like a single pair wins the hand. I didn't feel like calling the lead on the river with a player behind was profitable.

Turns out, UTG had very random Ah4h.

Caller behind on river had KdQs.

Afterwards, I still felt like folding was correct only because a player was behind. But definitely was unsure, so really appreciate the thoughts.

I know losing decent sized pots in LHE is a big mistake vs losing 1 bet on the river, and I need to be very sure I don't have the best hand to forfeit the pot for only 1 bet, but I'm currently struggling a bit with trapping myself with that logic and spewing river calls in marginal situations because the pot odds are relatively big. "Hero folds" can be an expensive habit to get into, but sometimes, it just feels like you can't possibly have more than an 11% chance of winning it with a player behind and the action as played.

So I guess my question is, do you feel the KQ fold on the river is close, or are you guys like "snap call, not close".

Thanks!

Last edited by MindMischief; 01-28-2017 at 04:31 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old 01-28-2017, 10:12 PM   #5
Bob148
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Re: River Decision with player behind

Quote:
"snap call, not close".
Yup.
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Old 01-29-2017, 11:24 AM   #6
MindMischief
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Re: River Decision with player behind

Thanks Bob
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Old 01-30-2017, 12:32 AM   #7
DougL
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Re: River Decision with player behind

Quote:
Originally Posted by MindMischief View Post
This call seems borderline to me.
The call is terrible, because cold calling in this spot is terrible with every hand. That's OK, because making mistakes is fine. However, there are zero hands that I believe would be correct to call.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MindMischief View Post
I just remember something from SSHE about even in small stakes games against a raise, the only offsuit holdings we should typically play are AKo and potentially AQo depending on the game. It feels a bit tight to fold it, but I just don't think it can be that bad and losing too much value by mucking it pre.
SSHE wasn't written for online 6m games, because those games didn't really exist when it was written. We can play more holdings because your online 6m opponents aren't as nitty as SS live players. Also, UTG here is what live players like to call the "hijack". BTN+3 isn't as tight as early position in a live game.

Quote:
So I guess my question is, do you feel the KQ fold on the river is close, or are you guys like "snap call, not close".
I'm not folding toppest pair in an online shorthanded game for a single bet when nobody has shown any aggression.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garwin View Post
As played and w/o reads I call river too.
+1 to you and Bob, Garwin.

3 bet preflop (or fold)
Call river like it is your job.

Think it might be the villain's job to value bet AJ or KJ. He can probably have some 8's and T's that might try to get value out of A high (maybe?). That's in addition to bluffs. He's not supposed to believe people who cold call, because if you beat anything you'd have let him know.
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Old 01-30-2017, 01:08 AM   #8
MindMischief
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Re: River Decision with player behind

Very helpful, thanks Doug!
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Old 01-30-2017, 12:03 PM   #9
jdr0317
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Re: River Decision with player behind

Quote:
Originally Posted by MindMischief View Post
6-handed $.25-$.50 LHE Online.
Typical micro stakes game, but no reads on opponents yet.

UTG raises. I'm next in HJ with KsQh and call (?). This call seems borderline to me.

Cutoff calls. BB calls. (8 bb)

Flop is Jd 8c 7s and gets checked around.

Turn is Tc (4 BB).

UTG leads. I call. CO calls. (7 BB)

River is Qd.

UTG leads. With player behind I fold.

I feel like I played this hand too passively. Potentially could have taken the lead pre-flop. Also potentially raised the turn. With no players behind on the river, I think this is a shrug-call.

Thanks for thoughts!
Preflop is very bad. Cold calling does a lot of bad things for you, like caps your range against a strong PFR, allows players behind to now come in more profitably, gives the BB a great price to see the flop and flop something to beat you, etc. If you aren't confident enough with how KQo performs against a BTN -3 open, you should fold it. If you are confident in it, 3 bet.

As played, the flop and turn are fine, though river is a borderline call. But you should never be in this situation because you should be three betting preflop.
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Old 02-09-2017, 07:50 PM   #10
TINT
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Re: River Decision with player behind

fold or three bet pf. (I personaly fold due to being a nit)

as played call the river all day.
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Old 02-12-2017, 02:03 AM   #11
gr26
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Re: River Decision with player behind

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Originally Posted by TINT View Post
fold or three bet pf. (I personaly fold due to being a nit)

as played call the river all day.
if you fold preflop KQ against this guy why the heck you call this river. You beat nothing at most.
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