My recollection from WITHG (this game is evidently NOT a "tough game") is that with a limper we should tighten our range by one spot, e.g. on the button we should raise a limper with the same range we would open in the CO.

As it happens, I open Q9o+ on the button but in the CO want QTo+.

Call. I think it's best to assume it'll probably get capped behind, but even in that scenario you get ~4.5:1 immediate, to say nothing of implieds. And Nick indicated the most likely things you're up against (I 100% agree with him, btw), so hitting your str8 is essentially always the nuts.

Just don't fall into the "I can't fold tp in huge pot" trap of calling when you catch a queen on river ('cause it's almost never good imo).

Well, that was just my way of saying that if we fold and find out that we probably could have gotten 14:2 on call with 8 outs, then our fold would be a pretty big mistake in Fundamental Theorem of Poker terms.

It appears to me that even in the worst-case scenario (in terms of turn action) we're getting the approximate immediate odds we need on a 38:8 (or about 4 3/4 to 1) shot. I think we'll probably get 4+ BB on the river when we catch, but I don't see why we need to get that much in order to call the turn profitably. Has the rake gotten that bad ?

IMO if its capped by the time its gets to you on the turn you cant really fold, but youve priced yourslef in with a terrible percentage of winning.


if someone flopped a set, 2pair, to pair, with only the river to come you are going to lose ROUGHLY 80% of the time.

I think its is some kind of diease in limit were people take 4bets to the face on the flop, turn, on flush draws and open enders.

I would of 3bet the flop and and maybe got to peel a free river being in position, just c/calling a is not a play I would get used to. IMO c/calling is a leak in limit holdem game, we might as well turn the cards face up if were just going to check/call, anyone that knows anything knows right where you are, and in most cases thats behind.

Do you have math to back this up?

Understand what your saying in a 6max game, but shouldn't the range change when the game is only 4 handed?

I think the math was basically posted before wasn't it?
OTT the first time around he's getting immediate odds of 1.37-.2 (almost 7-1) to call an 8 outer with one card (a little better than 6-1 if my quick math is close) and the 2nd time after it's 3! & capped he's getting 1.87-.2 (10-1 with the obvious cap call by 3!).

This is why I advocated more for a overlimp preflop under these specific game conditions when we know it's a raise fest. If you go aggro then just ride the wave otherwise, limp and ride a smaller wave.

ya, we were talking about this during our review. You were of the opinion that we should open up our range when it gets 4 handed. Your argument was something like if we open up really wide when we get hu, we should be slowly opening up towards that end as the game goes from 4 handed, to 3way, to hu.

My opinion was that our 6m ranges stay the same all the way through bvb and a 4 or 3 handed game is just a 6m game where the first two or three players have folded.

Of course we are making small adjustments to these "standard" opening ranges for table conditions, but I'm curious what others think about this too.

Why would the range change? Card removal effects?

Idea came from watching DC vid series "5 is a crowd" where the opening and 3 betting range expanded as fewer people played.

My thoughts (may be wrong) the shorter the table becomes the more you have to ramp up your aggression ie widen your stealing range in position because you are being taxed more frequently by the blinds coming around faster

That is a pretty standard concept and is, IMHO, totally legitimate from what I've read over the past 3-4 years. The devil is in the details as we need to consider the table dynamics as they change as well as our position, blah blah, etc, ergo vis-a-vis, quid pro quo, omnibus, kyrie e leison the road that I must travel.

I Know, but that poster said ti was stupid, so i was curious how he arrived that that.

Wondering if my thought process is correct or if I'm...

yeah, I made a mistake. I thought we needed 5.5:1 (or ~18:4 with implied odds of 4BB) but thats with 7 outs.