KK, paired board facing raise on turn??? - Micro Stakes Poker Forum

cardsharkboss · 07-22-2012, 06:13 PM

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is MP with K

, K

1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls

Flop: (6 SB) 7

, Q

, 7

(3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB calls

Turn: (4.5 BB) 4

(3 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero calls

River: (11.5 BB) 3

(2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls

I don't like my crying call on the river and am mad at myself for calling his 3-bet OTT. Pretty sure I should've put SB on 44 or a FD that got there and folded the turn to that strength. Would a fold on the turn be standard here? cheers

antneye · 07-22-2012, 06:27 PM

If you want good feedback do not post results....stop the action at the point you feel you have a decision to make.

I would not have raised his turn donk. Thats probably where I would stop the action. Perhaps a mod can adjust this so you have a shot at feedback.

Nick C · 07-22-2012, 07:20 PM

The turn 3-bet is scary, but, FWIW, Villain can't have a made flush, and I'd be more worried about 7x than pocket 4's since in terms of card combinations a lot more combinations of 7x are available. Also, if Villain did have 44, he sure did play it in an extremely straightforward way.

In any case, I wouldn't be looking to take any line that involved folding my overpair to a show of strength from just one player. If I raised the turn, I wouldn't be happy when SB 3-bet, but I would call down against an unknown.

Edit: Incidentally, if Villain did have pocket 4's and somehow you knew this for certain after he 3-bet the turn, then your turn call still wouldn't cost you anything over the long term since you'd have 4 outs and you'd be getting 10:1.

Of course, the turn call does become bad in Fundamental Theorem of Poker terms if we see that call as part of a calldown that includes a call on the river unimproved. But there's no avoiding it in a game where you make lots of river decisions and you're getting odds like 12:1 for some of the them: Sometimes you're going to make river calls that in Fundamental Theorem of Poker terms are 1 BB "mistakes."

Green-Machine · 07-23-2012, 03:38 PM

There are no big mistakes in your play IMO.

Good raise PF. Why be mad at yourself on the turn? What are you going to do fold?

Green-Machine · 07-23-2012, 03:41 PM

For jeebus's sake you have an overpair to the board, playing $0.10 limit holdem.

Good hand OP. (seriously)

You might work on playing strong ABC poker, for now, and not worry about hand reading, you will call on the river in hands like these, and still be a profitable player.

How often can you call a hand like this and be wrong?

Come up with an answer.

nyrugby · 07-23-2012, 03:49 PM

nh can't find a fold anywhere here, raising his turn donk is the only question IMO

SirDilac · 07-23-2012, 04:02 PM

I'd play it exactly the same and expect to show a profit. Turn can just as well be a Q or for some more aggro players 88, 99, TT, JJ, Ad4d or something like that. Putting him on 44 just cause he 3! is kinda mubsy. NH.

cardsharkboss · 07-23-2012, 04:36 PM

TY all, i getcha. Im just paranoid I may have f****d up somewhere so I'm glad to hear you would do the same as me here

lawdude · 07-24-2012, 05:42 AM

I'm gonna go against the majority here. Absent reads, I think the turn donk bet is a very polarized range, which means in turn that we are WA (a draw or a queen) or WB (a seven or a boat).

As a result, I think the turn raise is actually terrible. We are going to get 3-bet by hands that crush us, and we are actually probably losing some value from bluffs and semi-bluffs by not allowing the villain to continue to bet into us. Plus, if villain has a queen, we may even induce a b/f if he can read hands competently.

I think you should call the turn, call the river UI, and bet a safe river if checked to.

Nick C · 07-24-2012, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lawdude

I'm gonna go against the majority here. Absent reads, I think the turn donk bet is a very polarized range, which means in turn that we are WA (a draw or a queen) or WB (a seven or a boat).

As a result, I think the turn raise is actually terrible. We are going to get 3-bet by hands that crush us, and we are actually probably losing some value from bluffs and semi-bluffs by not allowing the villain to continue to bet into us. Plus, if villain has a queen, we may even induce a b/f if he can read hands competently.

I think you should call the turn, call the river UI, and bet a safe river if checked to.

It's true that whoever is behind between the two of them -- SB or Hero -- will tend to have few outs. We know that Hero, if behind, has just 2-4 outs (and usually just 2 outs) and SB, at most, has 14 outs with 6d5d or 11 outs with AdXd or 8 outs with XdXd, and he often will have just 2 outs with Qx or a PP instead.

However, I think that the key question -- and I don't have the answer -- is how often we're ahead. I mean, perhaps 0.05/0.10 players do more bet/folding with made hands on the turn than I would have expected, but are we really anticipating that an 0.05/0.10 unknown is going to fold a Q to a single raise in this hand?

Also, lawdude doesn't mention BB, so I'm thinking that lawdude may have missed the fact that BB is still in the hand (and has already called) at the point when Hero raises the turn. And I think BB's presence makes it at least somewhat less likely that SB is on a bet/fold air bluff -- among other things, he would have had to call the flop 3-way with air in order to set up his turn bluff donkbet. I think BB's presence also makes it somewhat less likely that SB will fire a river barrel UI if he's on XdXd -- although, honestly, I still kind of expect him to.

Mostly, though, I think BB's presence in the hand means that we get additional value out of a successful turn raise compared to what we would get HU versus SB.

I'm not claiming to know how often our turn raise will actually be successful, though. I'm unfamiliar with how the limit tends to play, and I'm rusty from over a year of poker inactivity. If I were readless at the table, I would probably be too confused by SB's turn donkbet to do anything but call. (Also, the thought would cross my mind that maybe he has a 7 and is trying hard not to do anything too alarming, like checkraise

, which in his mind would give away the monstrous strength of his hand.)

roadster99 · 07-25-2012, 05:54 PM

*g*

I think that the play is standard up until the Turn. I'm not excited about the Turn raise because an OOP lead, esp when you've been the aggressor, usually means pretty darn strong. On top of that, they're playing from the blinds so in my personal experience, calling ranges tend to be pretty wide. It wouldn't surprise me if they flipped over 7x or something.

The SB Turn lead doesn't necessarily make me believe he has a FD, as you stated, because I see Villain donking the Flop, x/calling Turn, betting Rvr. I probably would have just called Turn, as I don't really want to pwn myself, but I at least want to see a SD.

D.Lovelee · 07-26-2012, 06:52 PM

I payed this same hand yesterday. Villain turned over A7s
High variance game.

Dhani · 07-26-2012, 07:16 PM

When SB bets the non flush 4 on the turn and is called by the other villain, I'm just calling, unless you can
a) fold to a donk/3! or
b) put SB on 56dd

SB probably has something like A7, 67s, 78s and doesn't want the turn to be checked through by AK which may allow the flush to hit OTR. Raising the turn doesn't seem like it will accomplish much unless we truly think we're ahead and it's for value.
I just plan on calling down from the turn and river even if it's still a 3-way OTR unless we see a lot of action.