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Old 08-07-2012, 02:11 PM   #1
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KJ on BTN Flops Big Combo Draw in Four-Way Pot

Reads:
BB is 91/27/4.7 after just 11 hands. WTSD 20, W$SD 0 I think it's safe to say they are loose and aggressive.
UTG/LJ is 53/20/0.67 after just 15 hands. WTSD 40, W$SD 75. Probably loose-passive, but it's too soon to tell.
CO is 52/27/1.8 after 62 hands. WTSD 47, W$SD 44. Notes say "makes aggro plays at pots that don't quite make sense" and "flat SB w/Ac8s; k/c Js3d3h k/r 7d b Qh terribluff"

Merge - $0.25/$0.50 (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

Hero (BTN): $20.12
SB: $13.30
BB: $9.28
UTG: $15.56
MP: $34.16
CO: $12.75

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero has J K

UTG calls $0.25, fold, CO raises to $0.50, Hero raises to $0.75, fold, BB calls $0.50, UTG calls $0.50, CO calls $0.25

Flop: ($3.10, 4 players) T 9 5
BB checks, UTG checks, CO bets $0.25, Hero ...?

Call and hope for overcalls to sweeten the pot? Or raise for value and/or to try to clean up overcard outs?

In either case, what's our turn plan if we hit a or Q? If we hit a K or J? If an A hits? A brick?
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Old 08-07-2012, 02:38 PM   #2
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Re: KJ on BTN Flops Big Combo Draw in Four-Way Pot

I'm inclined to call simply because of our position and the fact that others remain behind me. Yes the donker is a drooler, but I really want to maximize money going in and keep this multiway at this point. If it is raised behind us I would likely 3! or cap when it came back to us to pump the pot.

Tough to say what I would do in part 2 of your Q until I know what the action is and who remains.
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Old 08-07-2012, 02:41 PM   #3
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Re: KJ on BTN Flops Big Combo Draw in Four-Way Pot

raise.
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Old 08-07-2012, 05:38 PM   #4
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Re: KJ on BTN Flops Big Combo Draw in Four-Way Pot

My instinct is to raise here. Doing so will probably improve our chances at least a little bit of winning the already-large pot. Also, our draw is huge. Our small-sample tentative read is that we're up against some very loose, mostly aggro megafish, and with that in mind, I don't know how much "cleaning up" of outs we're going to accomplish. But if the guys behind us are going to take two to the face with wide ranges, we might as well give them the opportunity to do so by getting in a raise for value.

If, instead, what ends up happening is that we get two folds behind us and we end up winning UI against CO's QJ, well, then, we can tell ourselves that BB probably folded Ax and our flop raise saved the pot for us .
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Old 08-07-2012, 06:01 PM   #5
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Re: KJ on BTN Flops Big Combo Draw in Four-Way Pot

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Originally Posted by AlanBostick View Post
In either case, what's our turn plan if we hit a or Q?


Bet or raise. Is there some reason we'd just call?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBostick View Post
If we hit a K or J? If an A hits? A brick?
I'm thinking we bet if checked to on a K or J. Possibly just call on those cards if the flop action was hot enough and we get bet into on the turn. Almost certainly just call on a K or J if it's 2 (or 3) bets to us on the turn.

HU I would probably bet an A or a brick if checked to. Possibly 3-way, too. I'm even tempted to bet 4-way, but it might be more sensible to take the free one instead if we're not HU. (And even HU, you could consider a "value check" followed by a Hero call UI on the river, hoping to see, say, QJ, J8, or XhXh.)

The thing is, the pot is pretty damn big. I'm going to be annoyed at showdown if I lose but I also discover that I might have folded out the hand that beat me with a more aggressive approach. (And I realize that what I just described is not too likely against this lineup. But we do have lots of potential outs as a backup that at least lessens the pain, when it happens, of getting turn checkraised and ending up HU versus the checkraiser.)

Last edited by Nick C; 08-07-2012 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:35 PM   #6
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Re: KJ on BTN Flops Big Combo Draw in Four-Way Pot

raise - we like it if we get callers and we like it if we clean up raggedy Ax's

I'm gonna disagree slightly with Nick (and probly get corrected) but I think I'd take the free card on turn ui if hu vs a bluffer who may c/r a decent holding or c/r bluff - either way we're hating it. of course we induce a bet on the river which is grate if we hit but since we induced the bluff, we need to decide if we calldown Khi if we miss.

I'd bet again if 4-way and keep priming the pot for our draw.
3-way is a tossup without running an equity check
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:41 PM   #7
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Re: KJ on BTN Flops Big Combo Draw in Four-Way Pot

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I'm gonna disagree slightly with Nick (and probly get corrected) but I think I'd take the free card on turn ui if hu vs a bluffer who may c/r a decent holding or c/r bluff - either way we're hating it. of course we induce a bet on the river which is grate if we hit but since we induced the bluff, we need to decide if we calldown Khi if we miss.
I knew we were at an apparent LAG megafish table, but I had forgotten that CO is the player at the table for whom we have the best read and he's a known erratic bluffer.

Yeah, on reflection, HU versus him on the turn I think I like a value check. (So, sure, take the free one, but then after that call the river bet that you induced.)

It kinda sucks calling the river UI with king-high, but sometimes these things must be done. I mean, in the first place it just kinda sucks being left with king-high after having a hand with such promise on the flop. But we do still have showdown value, we'll be getting ~9:1, and Villain has QJo and 4h3h in his range. Plus, when I last played, I ran across a lot of players who really liked to donkbet draws on the flop.

HU against CO on the turn, I dislike any line that involves folding. I think I'd rather bet and calldown UI versus a checkraise than check the turn and then fold to a river bet UI.

Last edited by Nick C; 08-07-2012 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:54 PM   #8
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Re: KJ on BTN Flops Big Combo Draw in Four-Way Pot

I would raise this flop. Our hand is disguised given that we 3!. If we raise, then we disguise our hand even more and if villains even think about what their opponents have, they probably won't put us on KJs. We may even clean a few outs up for top pair if we hit it on the turn. If we fold 1-2 players out, great, if not, that's OK too.
If we get 3! OTF, then I go in to call down mode, unless we hit our flush or gut shot.
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Old 08-08-2012, 12:47 AM   #9
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Re: KJ on BTN Flops Big Combo Draw in Four-Way Pot

call

lol at cleaning up overcards. we haz a king
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Old 08-08-2012, 01:37 AM   #10
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Re: KJ on BTN Flops Big Combo Draw in Four-Way Pot

I'm in the raise category. Flush draw, str8 draw, overs (not clean, though) and position. Can't really get much better than that. I think this is too strong of a hand to just call here.

The heart and/or Q is obvious.

A K or J sucks, but I would bet/call for protection.

If an A hits, for me it's a toss up between bet and check. I might just check to get the free card (if it's being offered), or call if donked.

A brick is an easy semi-bluff bet.
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Old 08-08-2012, 03:21 AM   #11
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I think you have too strong a draw to not raise here. And in a large pot, there is value in knocking out worse hands that have a number of outs against us. If hands like gutshots call, that's fine as well.
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Old 08-08-2012, 05:02 AM   #12
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Re: KJ on BTN Flops Big Combo Draw in Four-Way Pot

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Originally Posted by Dhani View Post
I would raise this flop. Our hand is disguised given that we 3!. If we raise, then we disguise our hand even more and if villains even think about what their opponents have, they probably won't put us on KJs. We may even clean a few outs up for top pair if we hit it on the turn..
+1

we have a big advantage because of our pf action & position

if on turn we just hit K or J & if villian check we bet, if villian bet we call & wait for our bingo on river to raise again
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