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Old 05-21-2012, 06:01 AM   #1
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J8 on 8xx, turn is an Ace

Yeah I know I'm posting a lot of hands but there isn't exactly loads going on in this forum.

Villain is a standard lagtag, around the 30/20/54 region. Has a slight tendency to fastplay the flop with good hands even when in position - don't put too much stock in this read though. He probably mixes it up.

My big blind defence strategy is to 3-bet good hands and weaker ones like 87s for balance.

1/2 6-max

Hero is BB with J 8

Preflop:
Villain open-raises the BTN, SB folds, Hero calls.

Flop (4.5 SB): 8 7 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, Villain bets, Hero raises, Villain calls.

Would anyone c/c the flop? The problem with c-r'ing here is that there aren't that many draws to balance my range. I dunno if c-r'ing with gutshot draws like J9 or JT is good or not. Spots like this are leading me think that I should join the cool kids and just flat my whole range from the BB. It would make my c'r range a lot wider on boards like this.

Turn (4.25 BB): A (2 players)
Hero?

I feel like I'm now in "no better hands fold, few worse hands call" territory. I get value out of 33-66, T9. But all those flopped two OC hands now hit the muck. And as my range is weighted towards 8x, he's very unlikely to fold 99+.
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Old 05-21-2012, 12:18 PM   #2
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Re: J8 on 8xx, turn is an Ace

You are heads up. You still get value from smaller pairs. In any event, checking scare cards heads up basically announces your hand. This is one of the reasons bet-folding is often superior to checking-- it keeps your range wider.
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Old 05-21-2012, 01:36 PM   #3
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Re: J8 on 8xx, turn is an Ace

Yeah....B/F the turn and I see no reason not to c/r the flop. I think C/C would be pretty bad.
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Old 05-21-2012, 03:23 PM   #4
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Re: J8 on 8xx, turn is an Ace

*G*

I think in this spot I'd tend to b/f as I like continuing with our aggression. I wouldn't exactly put him on an A as he seems to be the type of player to have a wide stealing range.

But, I mean, if you want to SD against him as cheaply as possible, x/c to SD if you're afraid of a raise.
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Old 05-21-2012, 03:55 PM   #5
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Re: J8 on 8xx, turn is an Ace

bet/folding the turn here is pretty bad imo... if a lag/tag raises the turn here, it should be with a wide range, including pairs that you beat and draws.

if the preflop raise came from an earlier position, then the Ace is more of a scare card, but villain's button range should be pretty wide here
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Old 05-21-2012, 04:19 PM   #6
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Re: J8 on 8xx, turn is an Ace

Well, Baddy is technically right, but against villains who get bluffy on scare cards, I actually bet-call this sort of thing.
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Old 05-21-2012, 04:36 PM   #7
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Re: J8 on 8xx, turn is an Ace

bet/call down
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Old 05-21-2012, 04:49 PM   #8
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Re: J8 on 8xx, turn is an Ace

Quote:
Originally Posted by baddyplayer View Post
bet/folding the turn here is pretty bad imo... if a lag/tag raises the turn here, it should be with a wide range, including pairs that you beat and draws.

if the preflop raise came from an earlier position, then the Ace is more of a scare card, but villain's button range should be pretty wide here
So you think he'd turn 55 into a bluff? And what draws? There's T9, 65s, maybe J9 and JT... not much else.
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Old 05-21-2012, 05:37 PM   #9
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Re: J8 on 8xx, turn is an Ace

b/f 2nd pair getting >7:1 against laggy villain would be kinda bad, imo.
b/c turn. Check river UI (think about calling, pending what river card is).
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Old 05-21-2012, 06:55 PM   #10
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Re: J8 on 8xx, turn is an Ace

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Originally Posted by Rooksx View Post
So you think he'd turn 55 into a bluff? And what draws? There's T9, 65s, maybe J9 and JT... not much else.
not turning 55 into a bluff, but top pairs on the flop with weaker kickers and even 7's with a good kicker have decent value against your flop checkraise if you're 3 betting all your premiums preflop.

add T6s and 54s to those hands and that's quite a few draws he could have too.
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Old 05-21-2012, 08:41 PM   #11
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Re: J8 on 8xx, turn is an Ace

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Originally Posted by dragon1893 View Post
bet/call down
clearly this. it's really not close at all.
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:49 PM   #12
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Re: J8 on 8xx, turn is an Ace

Another vote for bet/call. If you check you might as well just open fold while screaming OH NO IT'S AN ACE.
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Old 05-22-2012, 06:13 PM   #13
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Re: J8 on 8xx, turn is an Ace

running bad rook

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecooke View Post
clearly this. it's really not close at all.
+1
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Old 05-22-2012, 07:13 PM   #14
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Re: J8 on 8xx, turn is an Ace

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
running bad rook
[self-pity]I've been running bad so long you can't call it running bad.[/self-pity]

That said, I'm not totally convinced that he's bluffing here so often.
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