Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W.
Yeah. It's not a bluff. But I said "closer to a bluff." I'm betting to get hands to fold, not because I want hands to call.
ok
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W.
I think the river is super obvious if I bet here and get called. What do you think makes that a tough decision.
Most of the time when he checks, it's because he has the worst hand.
You answered this in your next quote.
By using this hand to bet which is not a bluff ( your own words) , what info you gather when he called ?
He still can have a weaker hand than yours because that is what bad cold caller do, they call.
What you do not know it is his tendency.
how would you know how aggro he is if you almost never c/c the turn, trying to figure how often he barrel once or twice.
c/c this hand and maybe having a free SD or having a free card and having an easy bet for value on river if he check is imo a lot more useful information than simple betting and ASSUMING your beat by folding the river.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W.
QJ/KJ are not value hands here. Also, I don't have too many other Jx hands in this spot. Do you?
I have so many A in my range i would not even bet pocket K here because the pot is not that big.
So my hand range for value is not that wide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W.
The implied odds are meh. You have so few outs and the board will be so scary that you're not getting a big up side. I think you've overvalued this.
Well we do not know much about him but if he cold call pf, i assume not many board will be too scary for him to call with hands that is better than ours before we improved on the river.
So i think our IO is fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W.
Nope. Because you don't get called. If the turn goes check-check and nothing interesting happens, it's a check and hope he bluffs.
This is bad...
This is where i think we disagree strongly of all the discussion and i cannot believe you do not see why.
No wonder you think c/c here is bad on turn...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W.
On this board, the ranges are already narrow. You're not looking to have dozens of hands that take each play because you just don't have that much to work with.
I'm scared of losing this pot because the check-call line is totally exploitable in this spot. Again, UNLESS you think he's going to be have a fairly broad Kx/Qx range (you still have not given a hand range) AND he's going to be bluffing almost all of those, there's just no way that check-calling is going to be right.
How do you know if it is narrow or not ?
We do not even know if his a calling station or not?
My hand range is not narrow i would cbet my entire range on the flop and if his a calling station his hand range is still quit large on turn.
If you are scared to be bluffed out of this pot by c/c this hand you really should c/c down....
And like i said earlier, letting him bluff one street is fine because not all of them bluff twice and this is useful info.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W.
Okay. So if you don't think you have to play him like a tough opponent, why are you worried about balancing your ranges? Just exploit tendencies and be done with it.
??????
Exactly ! How would you know if his aggro and bluff too much when you do not check ?
You really think cold caller pf would only bluff with a raise ?
You think finding tendency of bad players is easier by betting hands that are mxing bluff and value
or
having a very define range with good bet for value, check call and bluffing range ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W.
But how many hands are there that he's peeling the turn with?
No idea if his a calling station or not and what kind is he .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W.
It does, actually. Because depending on who puts the bets in, the ranges will be different.
It is funny you said this because you are the one in the first place betting this hand which is not a bluff and not a value hand too...So yeah obv. the hand ranges will be different...but the value would be the same tho, that is the point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W.
This play is very much dependent upon it being the turn. As I said, in no-river poker, this is a super easy check-call. With two streets left, it's a completely different situation.
Of course.