Exceedingly good 2/4 game.

BB is decent LAGTAG. In the past, I've seen him overplay some hands, but the current game is so loose that he's been playing as a standard 6m player. I think there are leaks in his game, and I have given him action HU. However, he's a strong player at this limit, and I think he wins.

SB is a loose/passive fish. I've seen him post UTG and MP (in this game), he open limps and cold calls. He misses value. No HUD, but he might be 50/5 or something equally bad. Maybe I missed it and he's 80/5.

Where's the third good player? Oh yeah, talking to me on Skype. We're BS-ing about poker when this hand came up. I don't know if he'll post ITT, but we argued some during this hand. I hate to admit it, but he might play better than I do. OK, probably. I'll start it as a play-along, though unapproved.

Cake Poker, $2/$4 Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Preflop: Hero is MP with A J
UTG folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB calls, BB 3-bets, hero ---

I'll try not to influence your thinking here. I know that the BB has a 3 betting range OOP, even HU. He understands this spot, and he'd play this just like one of you.

I'll give this a little while, and then post some more streets. Call or cap?

*G*

If (with your image) you can rep a much stronger hand by capping and villain is kinda fit/foldy post.....then maybe cap.

But generally just call, imo. Position and metagame aside, we're pretty well crushed even against a fairly liberal oop 3bet range, no?

Even against an ATs+, AJo+, KJs+, KQo, 77+ range we're a 3:2 dog. (and I'd expect that's wider than reality)**

**FR player, fwiw

I cap for the reasons stated in your edit - SB is fishy, which gives both of you overlay; plus it makes BB's range wider because he knows that too. We're in the middle of our range for a HJ open and I'm guessing hot/cold equitywise we're on par with the BB. As such, we can cap for value.

I would consider this range pretty snug for a Cake 6m LAGTAG. No HUD = people play like animals. I've been arguing this with someone else on Skype, it is actually an interesting spot.

I would guess you have a loose enough image at HJ that this hand is in the upper part of your opening range, then I think a cap is the play. If your playing tighter with a loose table then I would assume BB is adjusting and 3! a higher part of his range so then I would call.

Without knowing your image but going with BB playing more like a TAG I would just call here.

I think there's also at least a chance of a SB fold, which equals "Yum! Dead money!".

As the fishiest players at Commerce say when they do it, "Cappuccino".

Call OOP PF with your entire range to balance easily.<--- if HU

Edit (oh Multiway):

Meh, I still wouldn't over-rep your hand yet even with LP fish coming for the ride.

I don't see benefit in trying to knock him out either... which likely won't happen.. and why would we want to try to do that?

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Wow, after talking to Doug, I clearly do not understand how wide a cake lagtag is... wow.

We have a big ace. Big aces do really well heads up. And 2 sb's in the pot with no chance of winning it generally increases our EV as compared to 3 sb's in the pot with a chance of winning it.

I don't think the SB folds very often. While I understand that keeping the dead money player in the pot can lead to profit, I'd be just as happy to have his dead money and get to play HU with this hand. If the BB and I get into it, I'll have the SB behind me on every decision.

BTW. Here's the outside of the BB's 3 betting range. I think he's no looser than this:
44+,A6s+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T9s,98s,A9o+,KJo+

I could go for this: 66+,A7s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,ATo+,KJo+

I guarantee you he's wider than this: 88+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+,KQo

I gave SB about 25% range to calculate stove equity:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 31.617% 28.52% 03.10% 3179379 345525.17 { AsJd }
Hand 1: 31.527% 29.80% 01.73% 3321844 192965.17 { 22+, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 2: 36.856% 34.38% 02.48% 3832991 276020.17 { 66+, A7s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, ATo+, KJo+ }

However by just calling we relinquish position/control, so with that "go for this" villains range I vote we cap for one more sb and keep control in position.

Edit: I just thought that we should also consider whether capping is going to give draws the odds to call flop... Have to figure that in too, right?

I'd say that you can take the true premium hands out of SB's hand, at least QQ+. Also, 25% is tight. He already had money in the pot and he's terriblebad.
I think this is the crux of the argument once we agree on ranges, do you want to be an equity dog with initiative? Against some of the ranges, we're a money favorite in the hand. What makes you want to cap and not want to cap 3 ways in position? What is the core of your decision if we've got 34% equity? How about 32%. For interest, think about one pip better and worse with our hand, AQ/AT. Would that pip make things clear one way or the other?

Take out SB's 3-betting range (5%).

Hand 0: 34.247% 31.02% 03.30% 1749875 186175.17 { AsJd }
Hand 1: 27.257% 25.75% 01.56% 1452839 88119.83 { 99-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-KTs, QTs+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, AJo-A9o, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 2: 38.496% 36.01% 02.57% 2031485 144906.67 { 66+, A7s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, ATo+, KJo+ }

I guess I would argue that being IP makes up enough for being a "slight" equity dog. I think the later streets play easier cuz we can continue to barrel (obv depending on board texture) and only have to decide what to do if we get raised...

The terribad player spewing money into the pot makes me want to cap.
Keeping pot control and positional advantage over the BB makes me want to cap.
A tighter BB range or better player in the SB would make me not want to cap.
Giving better odds for draws on the flop makes me not want to cap, especially since we are not suited.

idk really... I guess the BB's range - if we're a 5% or less dog with greater than 30% 3-way then I don't mind keeping positional advantage - a bigger dog than that I think we're just calling (this could be REALLY bad - I'm totally just pulling that one out)...

I should run the stove's, but I'm pretty sure AQ would tip things clearly to cap and AT to call...

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On a side note: so does capping give odds for draws on the flop? I'm still unsure if this even matters?

without capping: 9 sb's to flop
with capping and everyone calls: 12 sb's to flop

so if SB or BB has some combination of a 4 outer (ie gut shot, no pair, no FD or some combination of BDFD, BDSD, overcards) = 10:1 so capping gives odds.

do we care in a 3-way pot? My guess is this isn't really a consideration in this situation or perhaps best left for another discussion? i.e. Ecooke can wave his Obi wan hand at me and this train of thought will just go away

OK, right or wrong, I elect to cap. My thinking is that the BB is going to be strongly aware of how weak the SB is, and that he's going to 3 bet wide. I think I can cap for thin value, and I can punish him for opening up on the SB. The spot is interesting b/c capping AQo is clearly for value and ATo is clearly not a value cap.

Preflop: Hero is MP with A J
UTG folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB calls, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls, BB calls

Flop: (12 SB) J K Q (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB calls

This street seems boring/standard. I expect to get raised by some hands better than mine from the BB. I expect him to wait for the turn with some monsters. If he's a slightly better player, the coordinated nature of the board should make him fastplay. Also, given the strength of the hand I'm claiming, he should be able to trap the SB for multiple bets. I'm not certain how this player sees the flop play. I beat some of their ranges, and I have both a gutshot the the nuts and a BDNFD.

Turn: (7.5 BB) 4 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero ---

Does what and why? Also, feel free to disagree with the previous streets.

Flop is standard. You do have equity, you also have a weak made hand that beats things like pocket 9's, and not firing a c-bet just looks so suspicious here.

I guess on the turn they have given you the opportunity to value check, which might be smart if you think that BB is going to pop the turn with a lot of his flop calling range. But as you said, this is a good player, and good players raise flops multiway on coordinated boards.

I think a bet-call is right. It also allows us to take a free showdown sometimes when we don't get raised and don't improve.