donk is the new c/r vs 2+2 types imo.

call pre 100% then donk 100% and watch 95% of tags spew their faces off.

I think this was a viable strategy for a long time.

Now that there are more good players in the game and this is the most talked about blind strategy, I would think going back to 3 betting out of the BB is the better play. This way you are staying ahead of other players.

For my own part I do what I feel is most comfortable for me, for some flatting the big blind with good / extremely holdings and check raising the flop is their way to go.

This doesn't suit me as I like the initiative as much as possible and I think 3 bets get much more respect from the general player pool.

Take a situation where you have 6,6 in the big blind and the small blind raises. If you flat your big blind and the flop comes A,10,3 , are you still intending to check raise, are you calling or are you folding?. I avoid these decisions by 3 betting the BB, I am betting the flop , if we both missed , taking iniative will more than likely take this down.

I am not saying this is right, it's just what I do that I find most comfortable.

I like 3 betting if I think that I'm against a >25% range. Against someone opening 50% on the button I think you're missing a lot of value on your good hands, but this is at the expense of exposing your calling range as has been stated. I haven't encountered a player that I fear enough, who also opens >25% that I would use a flat all strategy against, but I hope to someday.

Flatting 100% isn't a magic bullet. However, you guys are missing some of the merits of it.
This is actually really common. As we start to play better, we learn to play with initiative. Then, we only know how to play with the betting lead. A lot of the spewy TAG play you see posted on this forum comes from this source. Villain donks and lost TAG snap raises when he should call (or even fold). Is the plan to move up to 5/T and then learn to play w/o the lead? Get good at situations where you aren't good, that's the path to greatness.

Respect? You won't be playing with these guys long. Move up a few levels and nearly everyone is used to aggression. If all you know how to do is re-take initiative, expect to be abused on the turn. Don't make plays for respect or to create a rythm you like, do it because the situation demands.

So we value three bet an opener and then are happy to bluff the flop? Sometimes it is good. Think about opening ranges. They crush this flop. You three betting and then leading with 66 will fold out J8s? Maybe 88? Not having to b/f this flop is a nice cost savings when his range loves the flop and our actual hand hates it. People don't fold pairs or good draws, so bluffing 66 to the win is so unlikely.

If you choose not to three bet, you save money on this flop. That, or you c/r bluff it. Check out Death Donkey's classic series "Mano A Mule" for ideas on flops to attack.

You're used to the betting lead. However, you don't make any money in this exact spot just because you three bet. There are other spots where you might. They tend to be balanced by spots where you lose more or make less.

Sure. I suggest you'd improve as a player to learn to play both ways. The argument about never 3 betting isn't about this stuff, it is purely a balance issue.
Bob, you actually lose no money. Any time you want to get your money back, you c/r the flop. The same money goes in. Modern online LAGs cbet 100% (or nearly so), so you don't actually lose value that way. You only lose it when you miss a 4 bet or you fail to set up a spewy/tilty dynamic with your villain.

This isn't about fear, it has two sides. It can be about blunting the hand reading skills of an IP villain. It can be about getting a villain to spew post flop because you look weaker than you are.

Something that hasn't been touched on ITT is that you can cover the hand reading aspect by creating a balanced 3 betting range. Freteloo talked about this a few times, and I'd guess you could get Belltrix talking on the subject. Partitioning your range doesn't have to be unbalanced, so your choice could be to formulate a balanced 3 betting strat OOP. I predict that mid-stakes players will see this more and more.

All this is tl;dr. Short version: There is a good reason why never 3 betting OOP became popular. You don't have to do it. However, learning new skills/situations is cheaper now than when you move up.

I want that spewy dynamic preflop so I don't cap my possible win with huge hands at 11 big bets. I want 12 big bets to be a possibility. I love playing with a spewy dynamic. I think it gives me an advantage. I agree with a flat all strategy against someone who loves to spew postflop because I just called preflop. It's about knowing when they spew and you can't know if they spew preflop unless you 3 bet preflop. Though you can find out if they spew on the flop if you 3 bet preflop. How long does it take for them to realize that I don't 3 bet? Not long. Now they start checking back flops because I might have aces and I lose that value. Maybe if I had enough heads up hands against the guy and he never checked back a flop then I'd adjust to the flat all. As soon as he starts checking back flops I'm 3 betting again.

If I'm card dead being run over is a great time to flat a good hand against a wide range, but that doesn't happen at 4/8 live.

`i had a reply but i deleted it....do what ever makes you comfortable

I think that as the opener you can open wider against someone who doesn't 3 bet preflop because they're not charging the bottom of your range. I adjust my opening ranges with this(and the players behind me) in mind. If I'm winning money with 97s in the HJ I'm taking it from you if you're in the bb. If you're 3 betting though I'm not going to be opening that light so I can't win that money from you.

Back to being in the big blind. I think you can defend wider in the bb if you flat all because your range will be stronger. This is why I like it against strong opening ranges. Against a wide range our bad hands play very similar until you get down to the bottom 20% where you get into the really bad hands.

Doug slangin' gold ITT.

This is gold - good as money in the bank...

Since I was such a slowpony, I'll ask this...

DougL,

What do you mean by a "partitioning strategy"? (edit: not really the words you used, but a concept I want to ask about)

I take it to mean that (for simplicity lets say) "if" we are playing 80% of our hands

top 20% we 3bet to extract the most value from our strongest hands
next 40% we sometimes 3bet (red card we 3bet, black card we flat)
bottom 20% we flat

something like that?

Some random thoughts:

Having the initiative isn't always a great thing when you're OOP. In today's laggy, showdown bound games, 3-betting from the BB can put you in an awkward position on the big streets. Part of the reason you 3-bet is to create fold equity but that isn't such a strong reason nowadays as people fold so much less.

In order to balance your 3-betting range, you're going to have to 3-bet some hands that are equity underdogs. That's not great, especially as being OOP means that you're weaker than a stove would indicate.

Just calling from the BB can give you more flexibility. As Doug points out, there are some flops where you won't want to put in lots of bets. If you have AQ and the flop is 987 2-tone, you don't want to put in too many bets.

Fold equity is the last thing I want with my big hands. I want to get paid. So what if 3 betting puts you in awkward spots? The problem is still figuring out whether you have a value betting hand, a bluff catcher, or junk. It's not like flatting avoids awkward spots.

I disagree that you need to balance by 3 betting dogs. This isn't no limit. You're going to get paid when the guy has a hand.

So don't put in a lot of bets with bad hands?! I don't see the flexibility. I see my opponent with a 7:1 decision on the flop either way. I'd rather appear weak with my 100% cbet than strong with my flop check raise.

So are you only 3-betting with JJ+ and AK? I presume not, but you realise that very few hands are more profitable than the blinds and that the equity of the majority of hands changes drastically preflop -> flop? And even against a wide BTN opening range, most of the unpaired hands only have a small equity edge preflop. When you 3-bet a hand like KJo, you're doing it partly for value and partly to encourage your opponent to fold all those flops you miss. You're also balancing your range so you can get value out of your big hands.

It's true that you will still run into awkward spots when you flat call, e.g. BTN open-raises, you call BB with AQo, flop is K83 - how far do you take your hand? But this ties into the flexibility point; when you 3-bet preflop it's almost mandatory to c-bet the flop. But on a co-ordinated board like the 987 2-tone, you're going to get raised a lot of the time. Then the pot size may force a call. But checking the flop kinda turns your hand face up. If you just flat call preflop, you have the option to c/r, c/c or c/f. And as Doug pointed out, you essentially miss no value when you have a good hand as the pfr is c-betting close to 100%.

Your 100% c-bet doesn't look all that weak when you're 3-betting just your value hands.

There's already a lot of great discussion in this thread, so sorry to have missed commenting on most, but just wanna preface what I am about to say, that there is already lots of gold and I'm just contributing my little grain.

Whenever I am faced with the decision of defending or 3betting from the BB (always HU), I try to ask myself "how much will my opponent narrow my range if I 3bet?".

For example, if somebody opens from UTG (lojack in 6max) his range is already quite narrow, if I now 3bet against that range, in theory my range will be even narrower and confined to the top 5-10% of hands. Mixing it up by 3betting bad hands can be argued, but will make us -EV quite quickly against such a narrow range, so that isn't such an attractive option either.

If somebody opens from the BTN, then it is not that tragic. But good opponents can even work with that (narrowing your range from 40% to 20% is *extremely* valuable for good players). In HUHU it becomes even less of a tragedy as you are defending 80-90% of your hands.

So, in the end it depends on how well your opponents can hand read. The earlier position they are, the easier it is to hand read (for you and for them), as the ranges are already very narrow, so you can eliminate hands one by one easily.

I have not even addressed "power of initiative", "shifting of hand values based on flop boards" and stuff like that yet, but suffice to say that if opponent cannot adjust to those it is one more notch in the "go ahead and 3bet for value" column.