almost 11k: EXPLAIN YOURSELF #3 (errybody) - Page 4 - Micro Stakes Poker Forum

**DougL** · 08-09-2009, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by non-self-weighter

AKQ rainbow?
100% c/f

A72 rainbow?
maybe 50/50 c/f, c/c

KK3 rainbow?
Maybe 5% donk, especially against robots. c/c a lot here.

KK3 two tone?
See above.

654 mono (same suit)?
Always c/r

223 rainbow?
c/c probably 80% and c/r the rest.

A98 rainbow?
always c/r

999 rainbow?
always c/r

You realize that you're semi-bluffing on boards where no-one folds (and you don't have enough equity to value raise) and folding on boards where you have FE, right?

KitCloudkicker · 08-09-2009, 11:36 PM

i would donk the 999 flop and sometimes i donk the A98 flop

00Snitch · 08-10-2009, 02:10 AM

AKQ - 0%. Very often behind. Villian is never folding a better hand.

A72 - 80% and bluff that baby to sd. If villan doesn't have the Ace, he will fold some better hands a bit. If he doesn't fold, you've got 6 outs lots of the time.

KK3 rainbow or two tone - 0%. Even though ranges are different, the reasoning is the same as on the AKQ board. You don't have the best hand and villan wont fold many better hands.

654 - Initial reaction is like 100%... but I'm not so sure... Villan won't fold a better hand and will punish us when he has an overpair or OCs with one (or both ldo) of the suits.

223 - 0%. I probably c/c it sometimes if I feel teh gambol.

A98/999 - 100% because we haz teh nutz and because I never donk in a blind defense.

ColeW123 · 08-10-2009, 11:53 AM

AKQ rainbow?

Never.

A72 rainbow?

33% of the time maybe..

KK3 rainbow?

Rarely if ever.

KK3 two tone?

Rarely if ever.

654 mono (same suit)?

100%

223 rainbow?

Rarely if ever.

A98 rainbow?

100%

999 rainbow?

100%

VUcats · 08-10-2009, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 00Snitch

A72 - 80% and bluff that baby to sd. If villan doesn't have the Ace, he will fold some better hands a bit. If he doesn't fold, you've got 6 outs lots of the time.

So you'd bet the river if villain called flop and turn? Why? What do you expect he'd lay down?

**DougL** · 08-10-2009, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBadBabar

i think this one was pretty useful for getting an idea of how rarely a lot of you guys go on the attack. i think it's a big deal to realize that (without going bananas and trying to win every pot) your opponents don't always have it.

remember all those times you raise pf and miss the flop? well, it happens to your opponents too

for me, the ace high and paired ones i only attack depending on my opponent. lots of folks at aggro games or mid/high stakes or whatever are aware that these are good boards to attack and so consequently they don't fold much on them. it becomes too expensive or not really doable to 3barrel bluff here. if my opp is foldy i'll go for it.

the 654 mono i'd attack some of the time depending on opponent, again looking at fit or foldy or showdown tendencies

the 332 i rarely attack; no one folds pairs or high card ace or even king too often

the last two i always crfastplay

Some more answers are starting to trickle in. I think BBB nailed this and gave a concise summary of why to play these hands this way. Would anyone who disagrees with what he said care to discuss why you play it another way? There are a good number of posts that differ with what he said here, so the discussion should be good.

**BigBadBabar** · 08-10-2009, 05:27 PM

i mean just because i said something doesn't mean it's right <3

but i think it's a good starting point!

themuppets · 08-10-2009, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougL

Some more answers are starting to trickle in. I think BBB nailed this and gave a concise summary of why to play these hands this way. Would anyone who disagrees with what he said care to discuss why you play it another way? There are a good number of posts that differ with what he said here, so the discussion should be good.

Well, in the spirit of the OP I tried to type out my original answers quickly in an effort to capture my immediate reaction to each situation which is of course different from what I might have thought retrospectively or after reading some discussion.

I think the thread has made me aware that I'm probably missing some opportunities to take the play away from some of my opponents who often will have the same "bigger fish to fry" attitude I had when typing out my first response to this thread -- and I've actually already started playing back a little bit more.

The point about attacking disjointed, rainbow boards is well taken. I also think in my original post I was weighting my opponent's holdings way too heavily toward Ax and Kx hands.

Trying to decide how often to make these kinds of plays seems to the be the question I'm faced with now.

**DougL** · 08-10-2009, 07:20 PM

Put your opponent on a range and look at these flops vs. that range. That's where it all starts. What % of his range folds to a flop c/r? To a turn c-bet? Also, how often do you have to call when he b/c the flop and c/r the turn? That's where you determine the profit in these hands. You look at his range and see how you do. In order to balance, you'd start playing your range against his. We're not doing that here, but that's how you think about it.

VUcats · 08-10-2009, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by themuppets

Well, in the spirit of the OP I tried to type out my original answers quickly in an effort to capture my immediate reaction to each situation which is of course different from what I might have thought retrospectively or after reading some discussion.

I think the thread has made me aware that I'm probably missing some opportunities to take the play away from some of my opponents who often will have the same "bigger fish to fry" attitude I had when typing out my first response to this thread -- and I've actually already started playing back a little bit more.

The point about attacking disjointed, rainbow boards is well taken. I also think in my original post I was weighting my opponent's holdings way too heavily toward Ax and Kx hands.

Trying to decide how often to make these kinds of plays seems to the be the question I'm faced with now.

The "bigger fish to fry" attitude is something that is VERY detrimental to getting better at poker. I think a lot of people tell themselves "I can make my money in a better (easier) spot rather than try to figure out the best line in this marginal spot". The problem is that once you start to move up, you make all of your money from the marginal spots since everybody is good at the easy spots.

00Snitch · 08-10-2009, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VUcats

So you'd bet the river if villain called flop and turn? Why? What do you expect he'd lay down?

Yeah, bluffing the river might just be burning money, but I'm not going to c/f the river after c/r, bet the flop,turn.

**BigBadBabar** · 08-10-2009, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VUcats

The "bigger fish to fry" attitude is something that is VERY detrimental to getting better at poker. I think a lot of people tell themselves "I can make my money in a better (easier) spot rather than try to figure out the best line in this marginal spot". The problem is that once you start to move up, you make all of your money from the marginal spots since everybody is good at the easy spots.

well i agree with his main point which is that a lot of nits/tags just betfold a lot on certain boards, esp if multitabling, which helps us when we go on the attack!

**DougL** · 08-10-2009, 09:06 PM

When Elephants attack.

Here or here (right at the end).

**BigBadBabar** · 08-10-2009, 09:18 PM

ELEPHANT SEZ GTFO

KitCloudkicker · 08-10-2009, 10:31 PM

actually i think donking 999 is expert so i would do it 100% (i dont flop quads much though so w/e) and i probably donk the A98 like 10% just to piss ppl off