Been lurking for quite a while, read most of the library and am looking for hands to grunch, but wanted to post this because I think if I can get help with the way I played this hand it might shed light on how I am probably misplaying 1 pair hands generally. I recently got hold em manager, and of the 155 1 pair 'river made' hands that have got to showdown (100% of them) I have a winrate of -150.26 bb lol so err I appreciate any help!


I have 11(!) hands on button - his stats (for what 11 hands are worth) are VPIP/PFR - 72.7/18.2. Although I do take notes regularly I don't have any yet on this player.
I have 89 hands with UTG - his VPIP/PFR is 27.2/21. I should possibly have at least 1 note with this player by now but I dont... I was new to this table so these 89 hands are not from this session fwiw.

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.20 Limit Hold'em - 6 players
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is SB with K K
UTG raises, 2 folds, BTN calls, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG calls, BTN calls

I suppose I instinctively put both UTG and Button on something like 99+, JTo+, QTo+, KTo+, A8o+, J9s+, Q9s+, K9s+, A6ish+, but would raise KK as much as possible preflop here.

Flop: (12 SB) A Q 6 (4 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG folds, BTN calls

I really am not sure if this is the right thing to do. I was thinking along the lines of an ace is in either of my opponents and my range, given my action preflop anything other than a strong ace may fold if bet, so c-bet and fold if raised. I don't know if the fold line is too timid. Seeing the hld em manager stat made me think I am liking my 1 pair hands way too much.


Turn: (7 BB) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

I doubt the 3 spades has any bearing on the hand. UTG folded I guess fearing at least one Ace, and Button called the bet on the flop. For me this narrowed his holding towards the upper end of the range I put him on pre-flop, but he could just be very loose splahing around - he has played a few hands very since I arrived at the table.
At this point I thought check and if I was bet into by Button I would have called down.
However, writing this now it seems as though I am just giving all of the initiative to the other player. I think given that I was not raised on the flop I should have bet out, and folded if raised.
I suppose Button could have feared a check raise and so called. Either way I now feel confident my kings are good.

River: (7 BB) T (2 players)
Hero bets $0.20


I thought bet out on the river for value. I didn't actually consider the 10 as being in their range at the time to be honest, which has to be a mistake.


My thinking on this hand is all over the place. I didn't feel confident with what I was doing, don't feel confident now, and that is affecting my decision making, so would love a bit of analysis to get me on the right track. Thanks very much

I'd bet every street...flop is good, you got two folds...if villian shows down Ace Rag at the river, oh well....the average player at these limits will show down a lot of lessor hands on this board.

Even with that Ace we're ahead of a lot of his range especially with that turn check. I want to get value for our hand when we are ahead and avoid giving free cards that could beat us. I keep firing unless he says that we're otherwise beat.

What are your thoughts on what BTN could have took 2 to the face with anyway?

+1
Welcome to the forums. Just remember if you haven't already to read the FAQ sticky at the top and be prepared for some harsh criticism at times. Good luck and have fun.

Well the button called the UTG bet pre-flop, but I really am not sure how the player plays at all. The fact they called my preflop 3 bet and flop bet with the A Q on board, makes me think they would be near the top of this range - something like 99+, JTo+, QTo+, KTo+, A8o+, J9s+, Q9s+, K9s+, A6ish+. I suppose he could have been on anything though.

I bet the river after the turn check, I suppose I am unsure primarily if I was too timid on the turn, and if I had a silly line on the flop. I felt all over the place after seeing my hold em manager stats for 1 pair hands. Results orientated obviously - I wonder if that affected me too much. I suppose this is impossible for anybodyto tell from just the hand I have posted here... Thanks


Thanks have read stickies and have lurked loads. Ready for criticism! I have a lot of problems with my game. Any help at all is much appreciated...

Nobody's going to be able to tell definitively if you're losing too much on 1 pair hands unless you participate in the sweat sessions. Post your stickiest situations and we'll be happy to tear apart your thinking. Just don't be offended, that's exactly what these forums are for, and if you can ignore any hurt we give you you'll find your game improving rapidly.

GRUNCH as often as you feel you can but obviously follow up and see what other people think of the hand (and of your grunch)

This hand...at 0.10/0.20 you're just going to play the strength of your hand. Since this is one of the very smallest stakes you're going to find most of your opponents aren't paying any attention to what you MIGHT have. Unless he tells you "I have better than you do" ignore him and bet strong hands, check-call/fold weak ones.

EDIT: In the first few pages, is the November Sweat Session. Basically it's a peer review thing and it's still signing up! I recommend you do.
Last Edit, I swear: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/35...ignups-904825/

Good first post, formatting-wise. Your content could use a little help; when you have AA/KK at micro- or nano-limit tables you're not likely to make too many mistakes with them. fwiw, your OP sounds a little like you almost made the only mistake you could, and that's check-folding the A-hi flop.

All that said, your turn-river line is a little weird; why'd you stop-and-go? What would you have done if BTN had bet the turn? If you were trying to set up a bluff from BTN, much better to bet the turn and give him a chance to bluff you on the river.

Against a guy who looks like he's setting up to be an uber-fish (78/18 isn't great), I'm betting this all the way down.

Edit: good post, Skyy.

bozlax - I think I should have bet the turn, but I think I was somewhat worried by the fact he had called preflop utg and my bet on the flop with the ace and queen on the board. I thought he might have been slow playing an ace with a low kicker or been about to check raise me with AT or more.
This hand happened about 20 minutes after looking at my hold em manager stats and saw that I have been losing lots of bets on 1 pair hands - results orientated obviously...
The 78/18 was only over a handful of hands, but yes prerhaps I should have taken this more into account. And yeah I almost did nearly check fold the flop - was a bit all over the place/inconfident.

Already the posts in this thread are helping me see what was going on in this hand I wasn't thinking clearly - thanks very much all.

SkyyCaptain - think I know what the sweat session thing is - will just read up to make sure I have it right then sign up, can handle a few knocks...

This is of course possible, but given what you think you might know about him his range consists of way more than "weak aces calling down and strong aces waiting to c/r me on the turn"; fwiw, even if he did c/r the turn it doesn't necessarily mean he has your kings cracked.

fwiw, I don't care if you check or bet the turn. Betting is better against relative unknowns, but only you can know how the guy and table have been playing. The real problem is that when he checks behind on the turn it doesn't change anything...he's still got scared aces a lot, and he's still got strong aces that he doesn't want to "lose customers" with, and he's still got crappy crap that he's going to try and bluff you with. When you bet the river after checking the turn you're saying, "I don't have the ace but I don't think you do either," and these nano-limit monkey-types, probably wearing hoodies and wraparounds in front of the laptop at their kitchen tables, are going to raise you a lot because they now "know" you're prepared to fold, and they're also going to throw away the crappy crap that they were really hoping would turn into something.

As somebody else said itt, when your hand is this strong at these limits keep betting until somebody tells you to stop. Once somebody tells you to stop, call down 1 bet at a time, fold if it's more than that. e-z game.

*grunch*

PF: standard. you have the 2nd nuts, you should be willing to put in as many bets as possible at this point. your ahead the majority of the time and want to get value from your monster hand.

Flop: standard. you can't fear the ace. when you have KK an ace will flop 22.6% of the time but it doesn't necessarily mean one of your opponents have one. bet and if UTG raises reevaluate. don't be afraid of the ace but also don't ignore it.

Turn: this is where you slip up in my opinion. the 3 is about as blank as they come. bet, bet, bet. at this point i'm still betting for value. the original PF raiser has folded and you haven't met any resistance from the button so bet. you get value from JJ, TT-77, KQ, QJ, QT, KT, KJ. if the button has an ace then he's a lucky guy that hit his 3 outer. with KK oop i'm just betting until i get raised and then worry about that then.

River: this is the point where i check/call. there aren't a lot of hands that call that you have beat. KJ, QT, TT got there, A hands, QQ have had you the whole way, so i'm not sure betting against an unknown in this spot is still betting for value. i check and if button bets i call.

rodeo - perhaps you are right with the check call on the river I'm not sure... I see the error of my ways and agree with your other points, thanks very much.

bozlax - Thanks for your input - Although that was my thinking at the time on the turn regarding what I put him on, next time I will not put him on such a strong range without more information. I think I was playing a bit scared in a place where I shouldnt have I can see I was wrong.
I do take your point regarding the weakness I showed on the turn, and you pointing out that his check on the turn doesn't really give me more information about his hand, at the expense of me giving him information he can easily exploit if I am playing as weakly as I did in this hand, is great. Thanks

I disagree with trying to put in as many bets as possible. I would bet until shown resistance then slowdown.

when i say "trying to put in as many bets as possible" i'm talking about preflop. is that what you're talking about? you don't jam the raise button like it's your job with KK preflop?

disclaimer - i play 0.50/1.00 so somewhat different but not much i think.

if i'm playing against you as pfr in sb and me in button i will raise your flop bet with a Qx because i want to see how you feel on this board - 3 bet? you likely have an A.

also, my call for 2 on a loose table from the button includes Axs, 22-AA, and suited broadways and some unsuited (AK, AQ, KQ...). Hate it when i get 3 bet but meh. so lets assume button has that range (which is tighter than 73 vpip) but you're ahead of all but Ax, QQ and 66. As you've gathered from previous - your ahead ALOT.

Ok now to flip positions, i'm in your position. I've bet this been raised by a Q (or AA etc) and i've been raised by JTo! at this limit unless you have some history the villain is not a maniac you just don't know - so call and see what turn brings (although sometimes i reraise to see how much he likes his hand, if i get capped i check the turn and decide if i call down or fold, usually only if i have some feel for the villain though)

turn - dead card - i bet. if i get raised i have to consider, am i against set? Ax? without knowing the player for a bit at the table I a) call down because i may have best hand (and showing KK won't kill my image) and b) I want to know what he pushes / raises, do i see a real hand - ok, no?

river - believe it or not, i've been beat here by KJ waiting to pair or hit the gut shot str8 - to the tune of 5-10bb at times. tilt? sure but in a few minutes i realize i was ahead the whole time and (usually) he had MAYBE 4 outs so go back to trying to bust him and get a few bets from others at the table

-----

separate note - loser with pocket pairs...what position what pairs? you can be a loser if you pps are low and from early position. OR maybe your good ones don't get action (I have raised AA-TT from Button, SB, BB, UTG only to have everyone fold - not even 1BB sometimes!)


sorry to go long but figured i'd let you know what i've seen in the past couple of months since i've been playing again.

and fwiw here are my pps over 10k hands


Hand Times Win % BB/Hand Blind
AA 35 82.86 2.55 12
KK 41 78.05 1.48 16
QQ 39 71.79 1.04 19
JJ 47 70.21 1.35 17
TT 44 68.18 1.12 22
99 59 66.10 1.30 24
88 55 45.45 (0.04) 22
77 42 47.62 0.33 15
66 61 19.67 (0.98) 23
55 53 39.62 0.08 19
44 44 25.00 (0.58) 18
33 51 29.41 (0.43) 17
22 67 32.84 0.29 22
638 246


notice 1/3 were from blinds which cuts into the win% ;-) and even w/10k hands i'm still a loser with some pps (can't believe i've lost almost 20% as AA!)