I removed some of the 8x hands:

http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Board: 8h4h8c
Equity Win Tie
MP2 52.55% 47.22% 5.33% { Ah9s }
MP3 47.45% 42.12% 5.33% { 22+, A2s+, K5s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 97s, 76s, A4o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }

Not that much of a difference.

it surprised me too after thinking about it. so i dl'ed pokerstove. dunno if if's age or Alzheimer's but it was apparent i DID know the notation when i saw the actual program opened. maybe a visual cue unblocked my memory. scary

the guy looks like autodoubleconbets-checkbackriver robot. Let's think it over.

this confuses me a little.

?

A9 is high up in is check call range .

i get that part.....how is the top of your c/c range useful info (as opposed to the bottom)?

well.... harder to fold the top of our range instead of the bottom, when we bluff catch, right ?

When one says that a particular hand is too high up in his distribution of bluffcatchers, what he means is, that a hand is too strong to fold.

Thing is, that if one folds a bluffcatcher of certain strength on the flop/turn/river, he should fold all of his weaker bluffcatchers as well. It wouldn't make any sense to do it the other way around→ that is folding strong bluffcatchers but calling with weak ones.

Consequently, when you are deciding whether to call or fold with a particular bluffcatcher, you should always consider its place in your overall distribution. Because if you fold a bluffcatcher that is too high up in your range and then fold all of the weaker bluffcatchers as well, you will end up in the situation, where you fold way too much. And vice versa.

(For simplification purposes I'm using a very loose definition of terms weak and strong bluffcatcher, which includes equity (=showdown value equity + outs) as well as card removal and other effects.)

I think this particular way of thinking is pretty useful on the river. I mean, you often end up in the situation, where you have a set of bluffcatchers, that loses to all of Villain's value bets and beats all of Villain's bluffs and where you can't call with all of those bluffcatchers. Card removal effect helps you to differentiate between them, as it affects equities of particular hands.

ok

^^^^ this. A9o isn't much different than say JT on the flop. its a turn/river decision depending on those streets.

I think the river is close. I think check raising the flop is pretty bad.

xr A9 here is an absolute fish play. Not only do we have a bluffcatcher that can showdown most runouts (so we'd effectively be turning it into a bluff without reads that we'd be ahead of multiple street calling ranges), but this is a board we shouldn't be looking to xr often anyway, as BTN should be double barreling it frequently.If I saw someone xr A9 on 884tt, I'm already halfway to developing a read that will make their life hell in these BTN v BB spots.

Word.

Is anyone ever c/c flop and c/r turn or am I the only crazy mofo around here ?!

You'd have to tell us more about why you c/r the turn on a blank.

My question to anyone who advocates anything besides check calling down: What is your check call down range on this board? Playing like a spaz on such obvious textures is going to get you eaten alive at higher stakes.

KJ is too strong to fold.

I would call.