Well, to a fruitarian -- don't know if you've ever met a fruitarian, but I unfortunately have -- they're both murder.

It's pretty funny how Zimbabwe's first reaction was basically "What lion?" and now they need this guy extradited to face justice for his heinous crime.

Extradition treaties work by bi-criminality (the crime being punishable in both jurisdictions), so, if a similar breach of game laws regarding a rare species could attract a sentence of one year or more in the US, there is a US-Zimbabwe treaty in force since 2000 and he could be extraditable.

yes, it is the only way, because people respond to money. how much is a lion worth without trophy hunting? we know they are worth at least 50k each with trophy hunting.

shocking! actually i do have one number, 50k. it's a pretty big number. how much does it cost to go on a safari?

if you had two brain cells to rub together you would recognize that it's not illegal to hunt a lion in zimbabwe as long as you have the proper permits, and that the dentist most likely thought he was not breaking the law.

because you don't seem to understand, here's why lions are endangered:

step 1: humans take over lion's land
step 2: lion wanders too close to humans
step 3: humans blast lion with rifle

we can avoid step 3 if that lion is worth 50k+ to be shot by whitey. then, the locals will take steps to protect that lion instead of shooting it for nothing like they currently do.

like i wrote before, personally, lion hunting is not my taste of entertainment, but considering how many people get a kick out of shooting a wimpy deer or duck, it's easy to understand the thrill.


what statements do you want to be backed up? everything i wrote seems to me to be pretty obvious and not controversial.

why do you say that has flown right past me? you're acting like there are 14 lions left after the dentist killed #15. american bison were numbered in the hundreds at their lowest point. now you can buy a bison burger. there are more than enough lions to conduct trophy hunting in a sustainable way.


lol, i'll ask you the same question that the other guy refuses to answer. why are the lions endangered? who is killing them?

hint:

I just read a bit about this clown from wikipedia. From wikipedia: "He has previously referred to lesbians and gays as being "worse than dogs and pigs"

I guess the dentist should have killed a dog, pig or homosexual... or just Mugabe himself.

Amazin,

The point was that not all plant killing is the same morally and neither is all animal killing.

It's arbitrary of course and you can say killing an ant is the same as killing an 8 year old human if you want, but no, to any reasonable person killing a lion for fun is not the same morally as buying a free range chicken sandwich.

The analogy to eating a carrot vs. chopping down an old redwood just for fun was apt as all get out.

Augie,

Thank God for whiteys. Damn blackies killing lions wandering in their villages. Amirite? Also thanks for your great insight into why rhino's are not going extinct. I mean their tusk is worth a lot of whiteydollars, so why would people kill them all?

I was rubbing my two brain cells together and noticed how you were completely right, and may I add, superior to me.

Heres hoping.

Ok, so what's the difference between eating chicken and killing a lion for fun? Is it the obvious "one is for food, one is for sport" or is there another point I'm missing?

Just to clarify we're all aware that eating animals is completely unnecessary, correct? Animal agricultural is a blight on human society. We eat animals for the same reason this dentist murdered this lion; personal pleasure. Just because one form of murder is orthodoxy and deemed acceptable by society, doesn't make it any less reprehensible.

So, the guys defending this scumbag think that bribing somebody $50,000 to sadistically kill an animal that is conservatively worth a few million to an abjectly poor community is okay.

They have sided with this illegal poacher, somebody who had previously pleaded guilty to a felony relating to a similar crime and whose record also includes having paid $127,500 to the victim of a sexual assault as hush money. And the list goes on...

augie, you are correct that the primary reason for the declining lion population is local: loss of habitat, killing their prey, and killing lions to protect livestock or to in retaliation.

However, trophy hunting also has a significant impact: And you are wrong that it is in the locals' best interests to keep lions alive in order to benefit from fees paid by trophy hunters.

Oh, and I can garuantee you that Cecil had a hell of a lot more freedom than any factory farmed "free range" chicken. That doesn't make his murder less reprehensible. I guess "free range" only makes murder acceptable when it's soothing to our conscience.

nope, completely disagree

Animals eat other animals. Humans are animals. It's not at all clear that this is morally wrong. It's exactly the way that the world has always worked. Even while at the top of the food chain, many humans still die from parasites. Life sucks.

Hunting other species into extinction for sport doesn't really have much to do with eating animals for their nutritional value.

Well, that's a thought. Not sure a rich, white, boasty American dentist, with absurdly artificial-looking teeth, would have such a nice time in a Zimbabwean jail, so it might be more humane if the rangers just dumped him in the middle of a lion reserve in the evening, then jeeped and helicoptered out of there and left him, with maybe a bottle of water but no rations, map, compass or weapon, and told him to find his own way out.

And those are big places, and of course the lions hunt at night. He'd almost certainly survive, but he might have a different respect for the natural world, and his own not-so-great place in it, by the morning.

amazin, I'm vegetarian, and micro is an ex-vegetarian who can almost always be counted on to come to the defense of vegetarians when they are criticized on 2p2, yet your posts are dumb enough to annoy both of us.

Lions > Chickens

Killing a mosquito the same as killing a dolphin?

It's ok if you don't have some line in the sand like or can't order plants and animals a-z morally. The world is fuzzy.

Also, enjoying eating is a lot different than enjoying killing even when the outcome is the same for the chicken.

Btw, I was a vegetarian for 10 years, my daughters are vegetarians and I'm still basically sympathetic and only eat meat like once a week.

You can't be perfect even if you try, that's as good as I am atm.

i read that article too, gregorio, their facts seem sketchy to me.

if only 3% of the revenue makes it back to the communities, that doesn't mean it's a bad idea. means the government is raping its citizens.

same goes for the population issue. if they conduct trophy hunting in an unsustainable way, that does not mean that doing it in a sustainable way is a bad idea.

i dont mean to derail, but i have a legit question for gregorio or microbet or anybody who is knowledgeable and isnt borderline psychotic like amazin, and i'm gonna ask it here because i don't care enough to go seek out the answer-

i have known several people who have tried to go to vegan or vegetarian diets/lifestyles, and every single one of them has had to take a ridiculous amount of supplements to prevent their health from declining to the point that they literally have to start eating meat again. some of them have been in legit danger. i'm under the impression that vegans and vegetarians have kinda improved their whole system, but my perception of it is that you're sitting around eating kale and lentils and tofu all day, which sounds absolutely terrible. do you still have to take supplements to survive in this day and age?

and also, where in the world are there enough high non-meat sources of protein that you could thrive in a survival situation as a vegetarian?

i eat meat and view it as completely normal to do so, considering we are not the only animals that eat other animals. i don't have any problems dealing with being at the top of the food chain, but i think there is a very clear moral distinction between slaughtering animals for food and people who slaughter endangered species for no reason other than to take a picture and feed their own pathetic little egos

I really couldnt give a **** whether you're vegetarian, although it certainly doesn't surprise me. Vegetarians support animal agricultural just as carnist do

This post is so blatantly speciesist it's laughable. About what I'd expect from an ex vegetarian ;-)

So, let's try to get some logical consistency here.

Is rape acceptable if it gives the rapist pleasure? Both rape and murder are unspeakably abhorrent acts, but as long as the guilty party devires pleasure from the act it's acceptable?

Those who eat store bought flesh are just as guilty as slaughterhouse workers. Paying someone to do your dirty work for you doesn't absolve you of any guilt.

speciesists itt

+rep,

I wasn't vegan, but from veg to eating meat (and certainly eat plenty at times) I've never noticed one iota difference in how I felt from it. I didn't/don't take supplements.

+rep, I've been vegan 2.5 years, have never taken a supplement and am completely healthy.