Rigs,

You are overreacting.

It's bad form on her part. But one of the most frustrating things as a server for me was when at the end of a shift, after I'd finished all my side work, and I could otherwise go home, a table would stick around talking for ages and ages, preventing me from getting my tip and going the hell home

this. what difference does it make to you? do you think that if you tipped poorly that shes gonna come over and yell at you?

edit: you being rigs

Ok thanks. I didn't confront her or anything. Just bugged me that night (about 3 months ago). I gave a decent tip too - it just felt rude.

But now I know it wasn't a big deal and that I overreacted.

Another question for servers (probably already asked a million times in this thread): when you get a 15% tip these days are you disappointed? Or is 15% still acceptable and 20% feels like a bonus?

Even though I feel tipping on fast food is pretty dumb, I still feel awkward entering $0. It is a less aggressive form of someone puttng their hand out for a tip. It's awkward to say "no, I won't be tipping you today". Certainly not the end of the world, but unless there is nowhere else around that compares, I'll avoid the establishment going forward.

Not a good look, CQ. Prob shouldn't be attacking the customers when it's the business engaging in loathsome behavior.

You yourself are basically saying, yes they are doing something intentionally odious, but it's your fault. And yes, people are definitely being tricked.

Btw, I haven't personally encountered this, and I haven't been personally shamed/pressured/offended (and I would just enter $0 in such a case). But just by reading the article, it is pretty clear that they are trying to manipulate and pressure people into giving them more money than they otherwise would. They nearly outright say so. They are trying to change social convention, create the new normal, and modify behavior via obligation and shame. Which is good for their bottom line, but not a good look.

Would you enjoy it if it became standard practice for servers to stand at your table and ask you, would you like to leave a bad tip or a good tip today? And after you answer, (s)he hands you a receipt with only a line to sign for the total (whereupon you realize that they added 35% for tip)?

And then for that to become customary practice at FF drive throughs? And for every service profession to start asking in such a way? And then for movers to start asking you for tips up front, with the implication of their service and care in handling your possessions on the line? Etc etc?

Yes, these are far-fetched things, but that is the direction that this is moving things towards, and doing so in an outrageously obnoxious way. Even more far-fetched things have happened, to where people are manipulated/tricked/pressured/shamed into the obligation/need to spend large portions of their salaries and tens of thousands of dollars on frivolous/needless things.

Some praphrasing and then lol quotes from the article (with much worse off-the-record, I'm sure):

We changed the procedure on a formerly low-tip/untipped industry, to make it so that "the tip is "just in your face," she said. "You have to deal with it."

"The standard suggested tip amounts - 15, 20 and 25 percent" are substantially higher than traditional tip amounts in even full-service dining restaurants (higher even that standard auto-grat or suggested grat lines).

"I don't think people realize how much they're tipping by hitting those buttons," she said. "It just kind of happens, and they're like, 'Oh, OK, I didn't realize how much that was going to be. But I'm not going to go back and change it.' " because there is a person there to make you feel shame in doing so. (And yes, lol stupid people, but there are plenty of otherwise bright people who are not quick at mental math who are being manipulated in an odious way.)

The workers don't even expect the tips, and laugh at the high amounts they are getting, due to the manipulation:
"It's not something you'd traditionally tip a lot for," she said. "It's crazy. We're just pushing in these orders, la-di-dah, and people are like, 'Sure, you deserve a $5 tip on a two-sandwich order.' "

Cq, 27:

I'm with kof and nod on this one.

The pork belly sandwich is really good, though.

I find this annoying in the same way as grocery store clerks being overaggressive asking about a donation to some random thing. I feel like this crosses a line re: appropriateness of soliciting tips.

El D,

That pork belly sandwich sounds fantastic. I've only had pork belly stand alone or in ramen, but it sounds great with that combo including the fried egg (esp if runny). After a great prosciutto sandwich at WF the other day, it got me thinking about the next step: an amazing jamon iberico de bellota sandwich. Now that could be out of this world.

Their Triple B Taco with pork butt, pork belly, bacon, peppers, and cheese sounds really good too, as do the bacon fried chicken, and the grilled cheese with bacon and bacon jam. The next time I'm in SF, I'll probably try to hit this place up (and enter no tip out of principle, of course).

Also, I agree about the grocery store donation thing. At least with them, it's for charity, and they're not piggybacking unfairly off of already accepted full-service restaurant practices, in order to shame you and pressure you into thinking you need to tip the same way at a FF place when you don't and shouldn't.

Reminiscent to the even higher-level manipulation of the lol right-hand ring phenomenon. Eagerly awaiting the day that every man, woman, and child needs a $20k diamond ring on every finger they have.

And what if instead of the way tips work now, they made little robot hitlers that beat you up and just stole your money?!!

But yeah, basically I think this is sort of obnoxious, but I find the tone of morally outraged righteous indignation more obnoxious. This square up software and tip screen is not difficult to negotiate if you can do basic math and aren't easily cowed by a 22 year-old in a Misfits t-shirt. And if you accidentally tip $14 on takeout and don't bother to fix it, you can either afford it or you are Dids.

In general, I find it kind of amusing how we live a culture and economy that encourages zero-sum capitalism where any edge a business can find is fair game, but if someone puts a tip jar on the counter or presses an edge w/r/t making more gratuities, break out the fainting chair. I guess it's b/c people already hate the culture of tipping , which is fair enough really.

Tippers,

When I switched from buying coffee with cash to credit cards I decided I would just tip $0.50/drink and not think about it - save myself lots of hassle.

There's a coffee stand by my work I go to regularly (couple of times/week). For a long time they had a buy 10 gets 1 free deal so I would just tip my $.50/drink as usual (except on the free one since who wants to rummage for two quarters).

They recently instituted an optional pre-pay system where you pay for 10 coffees up front, still with the free system. I obviously use this since being able to just stop by for coffee and "not pay" is awesome.

How would you tip in this situation. The way I see it I could:

a) not tip
b) tip $5 each time I reload with 10 coffees
c) drag around $.50 and tip for each individually
d) other?

B is my current choice. I'm not sure about it since I don't know the tipping policy / how it gets distributed but whatever, I figure it all evens out eventually. I do wonder what they think / if they wonder what happened those 9 times out of 10 they see me not tip.

Nod,

The way to combat this sort of tip encroachment is to not do it. It is not incumbent on business and individuals not to exploit existing market edges. Why "shouldn't" food truck/takeout places encourage you to tip more? It's better for them. For the sake of argument, how do you see this as being ethically different from standard business/retail stuff where they try to get you to spend more? (FTR, I am a religious ~10% takeout tipper).

Oh, also, the LGBT is such a perfect idea. They've probably already made a billion dollars off that.

I probably just tip whenever I have change/cash. I personally don't sweat coffee tipping that all that much, you have to draw the line somewhere and that's mine /cheap POS

In regards to the server havirng the check off the table before the customer leaves:

I work at a nice seafood restaurant in Virginia beach sitting on the Chesapeake bay. A couple nights ago I had a party of 5 with a $290 check leave the duplicate copy and took the signed copy with them. Luckily they called back and left me 60$ on their card the next day when they realized what happened. My play now when people squat after paying is to approach the table and ask "did you get your copy of the receipt?" while removing it from the table. They normally say yes and I thank them again for their patronage and tell them to please take their time, and that I'm by no means attempting to rush them.

I feel it's a fair and polite way to handle the situation and cover myself from getting screwed.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using 2+2 Forums

CQ,

What kind of coffee do you get?

I know what you're trying to do, but it's not the same. My "far-fetched" examples were logical extensions of what they are doing. Food trucks used to be no tips whatsoever, usually cash only, and even when they accepted credit cards, there was no tip line. Then they started tip jars for cash and tip lines on credit card receipts.

Now this one food truck has a guy literally leaning out of a window, towering over you, holding out an iPad in front of you, while you tap on the tip buttons beneath him, with his hands still grasping the tablet and his face looking at you while you "tip". And the suggested options basically imply no tip, low tip, medium tip, high tip. Except that their corresponding low/medium/high numbers of 15/20/25% are higher than full-service restaurant suggested tip options.

With this in mind, my "far-fetched" example of a server asking if you want to leave a low or high, bad or good tip, is not so far-fetched. Nor is a regular FF restaurant asking for tips. Wouldn't be much of a stretch for FF places to start putting out tip jars, then tip lines on CC receipts, then low/high/etc.

They don't do this today, but these are the lines that our culture has today. These lines are much farther along than decades ago, where full-service restaurant tips might be 10% for good service and non-existent elsewhere. Nowadays, there is cultural pressure for much higher tip percentages, with increased direct pressure attempting to obligate patrons to give more. So my examples are not just hyperbole, but an eventual extension.

But yes, robot Hitlers that rob you is a good attempt at a cop out.

So businesses trying to trick and pressure people is just a little bit obnoxious, but people complaining about their douche-baggish tactics are worse. Got it. Way to take a stand.

This is not true. Businesses get in trouble, complained about, sued, etc all the time. Not all edges are fair game. See the tobacco industry. [in before, OH NOES, he compared tipping to nicotine addiction! No I didn't, I just pointed out the falsehood of your statement.]

Exactly. Tipping is a horrible practice that people have argued against ever since it was instituted. It has been racist, elitist, sexist, classist, illegal, un-American, un-democratic, and "the vilest of imported vices".

There is a lot of material on Google about this, as well as tipping reform being attempted yet again currently, mainly in regards to fine dining as well as legislation. I think El D has linked some previously regarding various restaurants' attempts to eliminate tipping and levy either service or all-inclusive charges.

Regardless, attempts to expand tipping (and at higher than standard levels, for far less service, at that) via pressure, shaming, and trickery should obviously be fine to level contempt at. These "odious" attempts are immoral and should be unacceptable.

Sure, of course it's better for them, but that shouldn't make it okay to everyone else. Businesses have a right to do so, and I haven't said otherwise. They also have a right to raise their prices, but they choose not to do so, and instead try to trick and shame people for their benefit.

You're half-right in that the way to combat this sort of tip encroachment is to not do it, and the other half is for people to publicly level their contempt for it and to point out that this is not standard, should not be expected, and should not be done. If you're saying that businesses "should" do this since it's better for them, then I can say that it is their right, but then rational people "should" complain about it as is their right. These businesses should be shamed and pressured, not their patrons.

Why are you arguing against that? You'd rather support the businesses engaging in reprehensible behavior than the people expressing their disturbance by it? Are you secretly a minority investor in Bacon Bacon?

Because they are not trying to get you to spend more. They are trying to make you feel socially obligated and pressured to give them more money for no reason or additional service.

Also, there is a difference between businesses trying to get you to spend more in exchange for goods and services you will receive benefit from, and from businesses trying to use immoral tricks to manipulate¹ people.

Agreed. Maybe 2 billion after DOMA and Prop 8 were struck down.


¹ Not to derail into other tangents, but some other examples might be the diamond industry, women's magazines, false/misleading advertising, etc.

I feel like this question creates the line for appropriate coffee tipping. I get a black coffee 100% of the time, and I'm not tipping them to fill up a cup for 5 seconds and put a lid on it. If your ordering some fancy drink that takes a few minutes to make, a small tip seems appropriate.

Nod,

The short answer to all that is that I just don't think it's that big of a deal. I certainly don't think it's "immoral." The guy leaning out over customers is being a douche, no argument there, but in general this software is pretty easy to use. It seems to me that your beef is more with the institution of tipping itself; as long as tipping exists as a cultural custom, people will try to find ways to wring more out of it--that's just economic reality.

Diablo,

I usually just make my own, but if I get it out somewhere, like 4/5 times I'm getting regular coffee or iced coffee (and usually at Starbucks b/c honestly I like their coffee more). If I pay cash I tip change, and if a tip line is available on a card purchase I usually do a dollar. As Bode-ist said, I definitely tip if I get something fancy, but I usually don't.

And this is why persistent upwards pressure on tipping exists. People supporting it, not thinking it's a big deal, etc. And I get that. But your attitude is worse, because it puts the blame and criticism on the customers/people who are disturbed by this, rather than the business that you agree is engaging in odious behavior.

Your initial response was to belittle others, calling them pussies, wimps, and stupid people, and that it's their fault. I'm just calling you out on it, that it's not acceptable, either the business's behavior or yours.

That is what will lead to public expectations of tipping 30% at McDonald's and everywhere else, and public shaming otherwise. Which is not a far-fetched extension of this.

My initial response was to your seeming level of outrage about this, and your perception that people are somehow being conned. I do think if you can't determine on the spot that 20% of $70 is ~more money than you want to tip on a to-go order, you have bigger problems than the ostensibly unfair set-up of a square up tip screen. Likewise, if you feel pressured to tip 25% bc someone is standing there. The guy hovering over the thing is obviously being a ****head, but he is not the norm. A lot of places where I live have these things, and no one leans over it and watches you intently as you enter you tip or don't. And it's trivially easy to press one button and enter the tip you want.

I also don't really mind, in theory, something that winds up kicking an extra $1.50 tip on a $10 order to the food truck guy or person taking the to-go order or w/e. This just kind of seems like a non-issue to me. Obviously you are more hostile to tipping culture than I am, so YMMV I guess.

Oh, and most of your slippery slope projections are ridiculous. McDonald's is going to start having tips like never ever.

CQ,

Re: your last comment, fwiw I've seen tip cups at Subway.

That kinda **** is getting out of hand and it absolutely infuriates me. I've begun to state that "I hate kids, particularly sick kids" when Circle K clerks ask me to donate to UCP every time I want a goddamn soda. I'm hoping it makes the clerk uncomfortable in the same way that their relentless soliciting does me. If I want to make charitable donations I'm perfectly capable of making charitable donations without your help.

Diablo,

That is on you for ever setting foot in a Subway.