Originally Posted by vhawk01

How would I be able to tell the difference between these two people, other than that one would CLAIM to feel bad, and the other wouldnt?

Certainly you arent implying we should take their word for it....they are a sociopath for cryin out loud!

Originally Posted by vhawk01

I dont think all psychology is bunk, I think a lot of it is misguided, and will likely be looked back on as a joke in a few decades (like most of medicine, to be honest). But you seem to be agreeing with me....someone who is diagnosed as a sociopath, or APD, is probably just someone who is bad at being a sociopath.

Originally Posted by vhawk01

No, they are stupid people with poor impulse control. If they were smart they wouldnt steal things with no value or lie for no reason. If they had impulse control they would just do what society tells them to do.

Originally Posted by vhawk01

I dont think all psychology is bunk, I think a lot of it is misguided, and will likely be looked back on as a joke in a few decades (like most of medicine, to be honest). But you seem to be agreeing with me....someone who is diagnosed as a sociopath, or APD, is probably just someone who is bad at being a sociopath.

Originally Posted by jmakinmecrzy

I am not implying anything.



People who are diagnosed with personality disorders usually are seeking treatment for something else, like depression.



This is an incredibly obtuse way to view this, I don't really believe you actually think this.

Originally Posted by SGT RJ

No, that's not what I said at all.

As you seem to be deliberately misunderstanding everything I'm typing, I'm done engaging you. Believe whatever you want to believe.

Originally Posted by jmakinmecrzy

You very clearly do not understand the definitions of several of the words you are throwing around.

Originally Posted by SGT RJ

Sociopaths have a relative lack of empathy compared to other people. They have difficulty understanding the emotions of others, tend to have low impulse control, and are highly manipulative. What this tends to lead to is a veneer of charm and sociability, but underneath they care nothing for the opinions or feelings of others - they are solely interested in doing what is necessary to get their own needs met in the most direct way possible. They have no sense of shame, so doing things that others consider shamefully (lying, stealing, etc.) don't phase them.

Their thought pattern is different from non-sociopaths because they don't have the same level of social conditioning. They can learn to mimic empathy and caring and concern, but underneath they don't really care about anyone other than themselves.

Sociopaths don't have to be criminals or hurt anyone physically, but they do tend to be callous and therefore hurt others emotionally, or at least they do so if the other person finds out that the sociopath has been lying to and manipulating them all along.

Sociopathy is not a clinical diagnosis, it's a trait, but it has much in common with antisocial personality disorder. They are difficult to spot because they are motivated to pretend to be like everyone else in order to get what they want, and have no compunction against lying or deceit. The fact that your friend told you indicates he has some awareness of his differences, and may be getting some type of therapy or treatment, but this is a pervasive mindset for a true sociopath that will touch all areas of their life. Ultimately, they aren't to be trusted in any way, except that you can always trust that they will do whatever they think is necessary to satisfy their own wants and desires.

Edit: I knew jamakinmecrazy would chime in here, he's talked before about being diagnosed with APD. He's probably the best one to ask about the actual thought processes someone who rates high on sociopathy go through.

This isn't something that is treated with medication, and scientists have no real idea why some people appear at even a young age to lack that sense of shame or conscience or whatever you want to call it that makes us feel bad when we lie or cheat or hurt someone's feelings. Ultimately, at least with our current understanding, sociopaths aren't responsible for their lack of empathy. They are only responsible for their actions, and there are plenty of law abiding sociopaths. It's just that when very high profile criminals come up (serial killers, for example), they tend to have a much higher than average rate of APD, so people get the idea that APD and sociopathy mean you are doomed to become the next Bundy or Gacy, and that's simply not the case.

Originally Posted by SGT RJ

Except that no good mental health provider treats stuff like that at all. Everything is a continuum. Again, everyone gets depressed, but it's the severity and duration that makes some qualify for a diagnosis of major depression.

Everyone has sociopathic traits, but very few have them to such a degree, or in ways that interfere with so many areas of their life, that they qualify for any type of diagnosis (like APD).

Here are the DSM-IV diagnostic criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder:


Sure, everyone is irritable or aggressive or irresponsible sometimes, but for most these behaviors are not "pervasive", nor do they involve repeatedly violating the rights of others.

If you think all psychology is bunk I'm not going to convince you otherwise, but if you think there's no difference between someone with APD and a random person acting selfishly sometimes, I think you are willfully misunderstanding how these criteria are applied.

In addition, actual brain studies have shown that people who rank high on lack of empathy and inability to understand emotions have differences in the ways they respond to emotional stimuli. Their brains literally do not act the same way as people who have normal levels of empathy and emotional cue understanding.

Originally Posted by Holliday

Personally, I'm not willfully misunderstanding anything, but it is hard to get a grip on these concepts from the outside looking in. Like, "there is evidence of conduct disorder before the age of 15". Great, WTF is that?

It also doesn't help that that so many descriptions of the sociopathic mindset are, imo, bizarrely emotional or even bordering on hysterical. "Dead on the inside" and the like may sound illustrative and it may make an impression, but it's hardly helpful to someone who's attempting to self-diagnose.

I have tons of the symptoms (chiefly poor impulse control, low levels of empathy, and superficial charm) and the pervasiveness, but probably not the inflexibility as many of the described behaviors such as fighting and crime are just things that are basically in the past for me. And while my emotional range would probably be bafflingly bare to many, standing next to my family I would look like a weeping willow fountain of feelings. And, yes, they do look down on me and try to take advantage because of it.

But I'm basically a nice guy. Maybe not wantonly taking advantage of people is a cutoff of some sort? I mean, if people were reliable that would be one thing, but what's the point of putting out a big effort to dupe people who'll probably just flake anyway? Also I think conforming to social norms with any cost when you don't have to is just plain stupid.

And...lol at the term "actual brain studies" as a crisp contrast to "psychology".

Originally Posted by SGT RJ

Right, because everyone who steals or yells at their family/friends/coworkers gets arrested.