Couple more things about this.

For the person who asked, we have 30 people in the company.

At the end of the day, there are always two perspectives. That of an employee, and that of an owner. For a minute, drop the cynical "THE MAN is out to get me" way of thinking (talking in general here, not to OP), and realize that when an owner talks compensation, its not always all about how can they take the most $$ home...its also about "How can I not do stupid things and jeopardize the jobs of 29 people."

The advice to ask for a 4-6 month review in new job that would include a possible pay raise is a great idea. I have hired people in situations where they asked for more $$ than I was offering, and I many times am happy to say "Lets schedule a review in 6 months to review your performance."

End of the day, there is a right and wrong way to do it. Just remember that there are always two perspectives. Smart companies will reward those that execute and earn $$ for the company.

I used to work at the company TomCollins is at. They were notorious for offering promotions without raises. It sounds like you are still uncertain if this change comes with a pay increase.

I think the bottom line is that if you think you deserve a raise you should ask for one and be able to give evidence of your merit. If it's not part of the promotion, try to make sure you can be up for a review in ~6 months, or see if it bumps you to a different salary schedule with higher advances in the future.

A friend of mine was very successful and was OK with not getting the full raises he deserved for a while. After a couple years of this, he went out, got another job offer, showed it to his both and said essentially, "This is what another company thinks I'm worth, what do you think I'm worth?"

He got an instant 5 figure raise. If you're truly worth it, you deserve and will get it. If you're pulling stuff like this all the time, or when you haven't really earned it, you'll be seen as greedy, like chief said.

This is great and all - but totally different. Your first post was the equivalent of the cynical "THE MAN is out to get me" point of view. An employee wants to negotiate and you automatically get a negative opinion.


That's a reasonable response and maybe the end result of negotiating now might be to schedule a performance review in 6 months to discuss a raise. But at least everyone knows where they stand right from the start - rather than being quiet now and then bringing it up in 6 months.

I tried to negotiate during a promotion and they rescinded the offer. Then they came back and re-offered me the position w/ no negotiation.

I would still try to negotiate every single time if you think you're worth more than their offer and can provide reasons why.

Did you tell 'em to shove it? I'd be offended at hell if they are trying to pull this used car sales-man tactics at a professional job.



On another note, how do I get more training?
A little background: Team is 5 people after our manager quit. I was hired by my manager, and then she found a new job a week later. Our team reports directly to CIO now. I've been at the company for 4 months. I've performed well, and this reflects well on the entire team.

Team leader got me and him training, so I was sent to training which cost the company ~7% of my salary. I enjoyed it, and learned a lot- it makes me more valuable to the company but more importantly, more valuable to other companies.

How do I bring it up to the CIO that it will benefit the team/company to send me to more trainings, and in 4-6 months would like to go to another?

Basically, after our manager quit, we reported to the CFO who had no idea what we were doing, and the team leader goes, "Hey, if i quit you are SOL. You need to send the new hires to training. Also, I want to go to Las Vegas for my training." CFO agrees, and then 2 weeks later we report to CIO, who would uphold the agreement w/ CFO. CIO feels we are performing well, and there has been no "restructuring."

I wasn't really qualified for the job they were asking me to do -- it was in a completely different department and I had no experience supervising. They were taking a chance on me.

Besides that, the dept. I was currently in was going to have to have another lay off. I had avoided being laid off in the past bc of my productivity (at 1.5yrs w/ the company I outlasted a 4 year engineer and 26 year technologist). But we had been distilled down to the people who were real workers and I probably not going to avoid another layoff.

So instead of having to lay me off they promoted me out. In their eyes they were doing me a favor, and they were a bit insulted when I tried to negotiate. But I made my case and the reconsidered. I wasn't able to negotiate but have a 3 month review. I would still try to negotiate every time up front though.

I'd be worried about a company that rescinded an offer over a first attempt at negotiating. It's a sign they don't know how to deal with employees in a professional manner and it makes me worried about their conflict resolution skills.

A reasonable response from the company might be "Hey, we're taking a chance on you and we're not prepared to negotiate right now." Then if you keep pressing the issue - rescinding the offer is reasonable.

Yup. Rescinding means you work for the wrong person / company. No one needs that passive aggressive crap.

I got a promotion and did get a raise from it... 18 months later, LOL. But we were under pay cuts and pay freezes at the time I was promoted. There are a lot of "lateral" movements that are somewhat like promotions in that you have more responsibility and more work, but it's considered the same level.

The offer came from the General Manager. When we spoke two days after he rescinded he apologized far acting so rashly. The place I work at has a very strong community feel -- he said he took it as meaning I was only concerned about money and he didn't want someone who was only concerned about money working for him.

Then he's a horrible General Manager. I work at a fast growing company with competant management pretty much top to bottom (except for a few weeds at the very bottom), but at interviews the middle-management guys here want to hear you talk about money. They want to hear your ambitions. They want that to be the driving force behind you. That's how you get good workers. When asked "Why do you want this promotion".. "Money money money" is pretty much the winning answer here.

He may or he may not be. I think the industry has a bit to do with what your ultimate motivations should be.

There are a bunch of interesting studies that show money is a poor motivator for skilled non-repetitive work. Basically you have to pay people enough that they can live happily and not feel taken advantage of. After that there are better things to offer.

This is an interesting summary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

That sounds like a not-fun company to work for

Not buying it.

The problem with those studies is that there's nothing else after the top level of these studies to keep people motivated..

In most real life work environments there are further promotions down the road as the carrot and the people who want to move up do not drop their performance just because they are getting paid now.

Now I think there are some scenarios in real life where this plays out. For example, in professional sports. A vast majority of players who finally get their big payday, usually have a dropoff in performance the following years until their contracts are about to come up and then all of a sudden they have a career year.

I imagine that study could accurately apply to an older middle-management person who is nearing retirement and sees no chance of further promotion.

I love it. This is the 5th company I've worked for since high school (I'm 28 now) and this is by far the best place I've ever worked (Going on 5 years now here). Good pay, good benefits. Fast growing and lots of opportunities to move up and there really isn't alot of pressure on the people at the bottom of the chain to keep up. If they wanna be riff-raff, they can remain riff-raff, just show up and do a 33%-decent job and they get to keep collecting a paycheck.

I don't buy it 100% either - but I think its interesting. And I definitely don't believe that money is the main motivator for lots of people (again, assuming they're getting paid a reasonable rate for their work).

What are the other motivators would you cite?

Seriously?

* Reasonable hours
* Flex Hours
* Less Pressure
* More responsibility
* Future Career Growth
* Power (in many forms)
* Ability to shape a company's direction
* Working on a cause you care about
* Working with a co-worker you want to bang
* More vacation time
* More challenging work
* Learning a skill/technology that you're interested in using
* Independence in your job
* Ability to work from home

That's just off the top of my head.

Depending on how much of a base that these employees make up for the company, isn't that a pretty large anchor to be dragging along?

These people are the standard anchor of every place I've ever worked.

Salary really is not that relevant to job satisfaction... unless you convince yourself it is.

That's fine, but in order to have that conversation, OP must first have the offline sitdown with whoever the key person is so he can find out the probably offer specifics, decide if he should ask for more, and eventually as a fallback position discuss the pre-agreed-upon 6 month review so there are no misunderstandings down the road.

Good point, sadly.

That raises two more questions, now that I think of it:

1) What industry are you in?

2) Is the general expectation at your company that, if a better offer of X% comes from another company, your company shouldn't expect any loyalty (yeah, I know, a funny word these days, it seems) and they should expect you to jump ship without any regrets on your part, or theirs?

I mean, if it's only about money.... aren't you just a disposable slot?

C'mon. I know it's oversimplifying but no one is showing up to work for someone else without being paid. Bottom-line is that money is why people show up. The rest (flexibility, work/personal life balance, rewarding work, good relationships, recognition) is ancillary.