You realise how silly it sounds to make fun of the choices and opinions of others yeah?

I work with a guy who is 40-50 years old, ditto wife, have never had kids, and they do **** like go to Stockholm to see Motorhead or spend a week in San Francisco just ****ing around. There's no denying that kids are a huge time/money pit, and I'd never tell my coworker he was silly for wanting decades of globe-trotting concert-going.

I mean, every guy has in the past thought that he didn't want to get married (Gonna just keep banging 20 year olds until I turn 60 bro! Yeah, Me too!) and doesn't want children... but life experiences, such as falling in love will change you.

Of all the participants in this topic, only a couple are actually even in relationships. So yes, if you are a ****ing single guy forming opinions about whether or not you want children you do sound very silly.

jesus christ OOT has gone downhill lately.

I've been in a relationship for more than a decade and have a child. So, the opposite of what you thought about me. Internet!

I'd argue the lately bit, but it's interesting how different it is. The best OOT treads from 2006, for example, are just so different in tone. At least in my mind.

yeah you made several posts about it already in the topic. r u drunk?

this is like a teenager saying that he will never be like this parents when he grows up.

there is a reason why people with kids tell people without kids that they should have kids, and it is not a desire to trap them into shared misery or that they are jealous about not going to a concert with you and want to sabotage you. for most people, having kids is absolutely amazing and you will definitely be missing out by not doing it... and for people with kids, hearing someone say they dont want kids because they want their life to themselves and the ability to go to concerts sounds silly.

but most of us said this same stuff.

Is this true ? Its pretty childish and unrealistic to think this.

I would love to have a good conversation about this because I think it also has to do with the way its being modded, not attacking anyone, just a different path has been chosen imo. Im probably not old skool enough tho.

This. When I joined 2+2 I was afraid to post in OOT. These days its one big ****ing jungle. This might sound silly and B&M'ey but I wouldn't mind a moderation discussion thread.

This is never going to be an interesting debate because when you have your own child it is different and therefore you will not understand until you are a parent. A sentiment echoed by practically every parent.

Childless people judging the prospect of parenthood on their observation of random children, again silly, but I have been there.

I think what you're overlooking is the number of people who end up in 'meh' relationships, especially when they're in their mid-thirties and the choice facing them moves from having kids vs not having kids to having kids vs never having kids, especially for women.

My parents had me when my dad was 37 and my mother was 40. I don't know how they met or how long they were together but I've long suspected that they fall into that category.

I think most people would thoroughly love to meet the absolute girl of their dreams, fall madly in love with one another, be in a financially stable situation and have a massive family full of joy. Hell, if I'm lucky enough for that to happen to me I'd literally want like four or five kids, but there's no way that's even close to a given.

And honestly, that's not me throwing a 'boo-hoo-I'll-never-meet-a-girl-to-love-play-me-the-world's-smallest-violin' pity party, nor is it me referring to the stereotypical 'virgin-nerd-World-of-Warcraft-playing-outcast'.

I'm just saying that the cold hard truth is not everyone has what you have, a lot of people end up in very average relationships, and the choice facing them is very different.

Well surely you can imagine that some people feel differently? 'Having kids is absolutely amazing', 'you will definitely miss out'...you understand the difference between subjective and objective right?

Yes and maybe you can't understand how good it is to travel the world (and whatever else you choose to do with the money/freedom kids take up) when you are both old enough to enjoy life more than you do in your 20's and young enough to do the things you can't when you're 50+

BTW I agree with your general point - the feedback from the vast majority of parents can't be ignored and point to parenthood as being an amazing experience. But to call someone silly because they want their life to be about them is super arrogant, and would be especially condescending if you're addressing someone 40+. You're basically implying that anyone who doesn't want kids is an immature 18 year old who hasn't fallen in love yet

multitablegrinder has now deleted the post he made that (mostly) prompted this post fwiw


you don't need to make 3 posts in 2 minutes. you can just put them all in the same post please. we can tell by your reg date you are new (or more likely a previously banned poster), a 200 post count or 40 post count isn't going to make a difference.


feel free to make the thread and we'll participate. i used to just silently delete posts now and then (very rarely), but i don't really do that any more. most people would be appalled by mods taking that action and are of the opinion if a post isn't breaking the T&Cs it should be left there. for example i'd love to delete all the posts by multitablegrinder in this thread, but we're not curators.

regarding the tone, yeah...i've frequently posted in a pretty abrasive manner for the last ten years but i've oscillated between that and polite, helpful posts. there's just a ton of posters around now who are nothing but ****bags in every single post. it's like being invaded by a ton of teenagers going through puberty.


right, but as has already been said a few times, the counter-argument to that would be once you have children you are in no position to be objective.

i come from a working class town and my high school wasn't great. as a result, i'm friends with a few guys and girls on facebook who had kids pretty young. come birthday time i semi-regularly see them post nauseating stuff about how their kid was the greatest thing to ever happen in their lives and they worship them. this is not a surprise to me, as i can't imagine anyone ever broadcasting that, for example, they hugely regret a dumb thing they did when young and resent their child because of it. or, alternatively, maybe they do truly love their kid and their life, but they have no possible way of understanding what their life might have been like without them.

i doubt that example applies to too many people in this thread - i'm sure most people here had kids in loving, stable relationships when they were a little bit older, but the general points stand. it's a complicated issue that no one on either side is capable of fully articulating, so to act like this is a simple case of the naive vs the enlightened is silly.

having said that, given parents have at some point been on both sides of the coin, i am super interested to hear balanced, thoughtful views from smart people, especially those who once battled with this dilemma. but stuff like 'it's different when it's your kid' / 'you wouldn't understand until you have kids' is nearly always uninteresting and unhelpful.

If it's all so magical when it's your own kid, why are there so many deadbeat dads? Why do people have abortions? What about the many cases of parents abusing and even killing their children? The magic misfired I guess.

There is no doubt in my mind that having children is an incredible source of joy for many, many people. However, I dislike the disingenuous of the pro having children side when they present it like it is completely certain that this will be a positive thing in your life.

If we didn't have to pay to take care of them, most of us would have as many as we could.

In any case, even if you don't like kids, making them is fun, especially if you are the gambling type. It's like playing slots, only sometimes you lose big.

Yeah, balance. Obviously having a child at 17 is less ideal than waiting before you did some of the things you want to do in life like travel and to establish yourself financially. And obviously there will be times where you wish you could just take off and can't but most people end up in jobs where they can't really do that anyways. I think one has to strive for balance. RDH can go to a concert if he wants to. You don't have to never travel or go to concerts because you have a child.

Children aren't really expensive. Mostly a myth. They do wreck your freedom though.

LOL no

For most people, I suspect that life with kids would be different, but not necessarily more or less joyful, than life without kids.

I will say this. As you get older, your friends start to have kids. If you choose not to have kids, that's fine, but you should not assume that your good friends will remain available and willing to do the stuff that you did in your 20s.

This is one of the main things I'd be concerned about; growing apart from previously very good friends because of a combined lack of relative life experiences coupled with the imbalance of your drifting slowly down their pecking order of 'most important people in life'.

If you aren't paying for private schooling the costs of 1 child are pretty low. Obviously some x factors like your location for housing, if you live in NYC adding 50% more living space could be very expensive.

If you'd put a number on it which would average your monthly cost without counting his education, what would that be ?

Yeah this has been my experience. Most of my friends have kids (we're all in our 40s now) and we rarely see them anymore. They're just too busy, and most of their free time is taken up with kid-related activities. Can hardly even get everyone together for a poker game these days... we used to play twice a month.

I think it's important for a childless couple to have (or find) other childless friends. Kids are a huge social outlet. For example if you move to a new town and you have kids, the kids are your "icebreaker". You meet other parents via them... at school, after-school activities, sports, the playground, etc. Your social circle revolves around your kids.

For a childless couple, it is easier to become isolated, especially if it's a family-friendly suburb with lots of kids. That is our situation and we sort of stand out as the "couple without kids" on the block. Everyone is very nice to us don't get me wrong, but there is not that common connection that parents have with each other.

multi,

Do you see the hypocrisy in your post? If you're having kids because it puts a smile over your face, that's also an "all about me line of thought". Yeah?