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Old 04-08-2012, 09:09 PM   #151
Poker Reference
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

I just saw you're a defence attorney. So how many of your clients have gotten the chair?
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:10 PM   #152
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

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Originally Posted by phoenixs1 View Post
We are talking about criminal matters, not civil ones. Police don't generally investigate civil disputes.
I think you missed the point. Let me try again -- you are hanging you hat on the claim that all defence lawyers will give this advice-- something I myself do not deny. That is true in many fields of law. Legal advice is not always the best course of action because lawyers are limited both by the ethics body of the profession, their own liability, and their imperfect information with respect to both the situation and the client.

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Your "guarantee" means nothing...you have zero experience in the profession...I have 17 years of it, and every other experienced defence lawyer will laugh at your guarantee.
Does your card have your picture on it?

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You dispute everything the experts say, though you have no expertise yourself. That's as dumb as they come, imo. As I said above, I've never had a client dumb enough to not follow my advice re not talking.
Well to claim I have no experience is not quite right. I do have a law degree and although I specialized in IP I took a lot of criminal law and I have some criminal law experience. More importantly and a point you failed to address is that if I was your client and I had followed you'd advice I would have a criminal record now and yet by following my advice I don't.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:12 PM   #153
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

henry you aren't even out of ****ing high school yet, shut up.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:12 PM   #154
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

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Are you retarded?

"Saying something incriminating" does not imply "confessing," even if confessions are incriminating. I know that you know this. Don't be stupid just to make some kind of point. None of Tsao's or the video's examples are of confessions -- they are examples of incriminating statements. Then Tsao says that 25% of DNA exoneration cases involved "incriminating statements" to imply that saying something sort of incriminating will be of the same consequence than had you confessed, which is false. To refute this Tsao has accused the Innocence Project of lying, despite the fact that this is their data being discussed.

Tsao (and I guess now you) keep trying to make a an item within a category stand in for the category itself to make talking to cops sounds more dangerous for innocent people, and it's ridiculous.
Finally, you answered! You agree a confession is incriminating. Wasn't that hard to swallow your pride like that, was it?

LOL...you're the ridiculous one. Like Henry, you think your smarter than the experienced defence lawyers, judges and cops.

If you think that with my 17 years experience as a criminal defence lawyer, I'm going to take legal advice from you, you are the idiot.

Best of luck with your future mate. I'm finished with bothering with you.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:16 PM   #155
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

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I'm 100% certain I have had considerably more dealings with the police than you have.
So you conveniently think your extremely limited experience is of some value, but think that people like me who have dealt with cops pretty much everyday for more than 16 years is not? And that the experienced defence attorney who also has many thousand times more experience than you is not? LOL.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:16 PM   #156
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

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As I said above, I've never had a client dumb enough to not follow my advice re not talking.
Have you ever recommended that a client make exculpatory evidence (credit card bill, witnesses placing him away from the crime etc) available to the police? Everybody agrees that there exist situations where you should not say anything to the police....but the claim being made is far stricter than that.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:16 PM   #157
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

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the fact that you can't understand simple sentences and think there's some secret meaning behind justice jackson saying 'any lawyer worth his salt would tell his client to never talk to the police etc' is more evidence of you being an absolute moron.
I have explain the context of that statement. You can call me a moron as much as is necessary to make yourself feel better but you are wrong on what Jackson meant with that and it was not advice that people should not speak to the police. Maybe you can get phoenixs1 to explain Watts vs Indiana to you in small words so that you'll understand the context.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:20 PM   #158
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

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LOL...you're the ridiculous one. Like Henry, you think your smarter than the experienced defence lawyers, judges and cops.
Being smarted than defence lawyers doesn't require much. No one goes into law to be a defence lawyer.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:20 PM   #159
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

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I just saw you're a defence attorney. So how many of your clients have gotten the chair?
We don't have the chair here. And if we did, the answer would be none. I've won all but one murder case I've done (silly client who talked too much), and win most of my cases.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:23 PM   #160
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

lol i know we're on the same page but i don't really believe phoenix is a lawyer

he's definitely not as stupid as henry17 though. then again, no one really is.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:24 PM   #161
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

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So you conveniently think your extremely limited experience is of some value, but think that people like me who have dealt with cops pretty much everyday for more than 16 years is not? And that the experienced defence attorney who also has many thousand times more experience than you is not? LOL.
I actually think your experience works against you here. You deal with criminals and lowlifes so your world view is shaped by that. The people you encounter shouldn't be talking to the police.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:26 PM   #162
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

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Originally Posted by Henry17 View Post
I think you missed the point. Let me try again -- you are hanging you hat on the claim that all defence lawyers will give this advice-- something I myself do not deny. That is true in many fields of law. Legal advice is not always the best course of action because lawyers are limited both by the ethics body of the profession, their own liability, and their imperfect information with respect to both the situation and the client.

Yep, as I said before, you think you're smarter than the experienced lawyers....nothing will change your mind about that, so I'm not going to waste any more time trying to. Our ethics require us to act in the best interest of the client, and not to lie to the Court. By advising our clients not to talk, we are not being hindered by our ethics, we are acting in accordance with our ethical obligations.

Does your card have your picture on it?

Yep, and it's a nice pic!


Well to claim I have no experience is not quite right. I do have a law degree and although I specialized in IP I took a lot of criminal law and I have some criminal law experience. More importantly and a point you failed to address is that if I was your client and I had followed you'd advice I would have a criminal record now and yet by following my advice I don't.
I highly doubt you have a law degree, but assuming I'm incorrect, all I can say is that it's a blessing you aren't practising. I have no idea what you're talking about, but it sounds like a guy saying that because he escaped death in a car accident because he wasn't wearing a seatbelt, people shouldn't be advised to wear seatbelts. And I have no idea what your "experience" is, but from what I've read, you've had encounters with police in your capacity as an individual, not a professional capacity, and those were limited to about 5. I often have far more than 5 in a single day.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:32 PM   #163
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

phoenixs1,

I do have a law degree and unlike General Tsao I do believe you are lawyer. The fact that I was able to pick out that you have your picture on you card by the way you discuss law tells me everything I need to know.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:32 PM   #164
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

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I actually think your experience works against you here. You deal with criminals and lowlifes so your world view is shaped by that. The people you encounter shouldn't be talking to the police.
lollllllllllllllllllllllll
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:33 PM   #165
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

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Have you ever recommended that a client make exculpatory evidence (credit card bill, witnesses placing him away from the crime etc) available to the police? Everybody agrees that there exist situations where you should not say anything to the police....but the claim being made is far stricter than that.
Max, in Australia, and in many countries, there is no general duty of disclosure on behalf of the Accused (with the exception we now have here regarding being required to give notice of an alibi).

Exculpatory evidence is presented at Trial, and not in advance to the Police. l obtain statements from Witnesses, but keep those on my file. If you show the Police/Prosecuting authorities the holes in their case prior to Trial, chances are they will just bend over backwards to try to plug those holes.

On occasion, we will do written submissions to the Prosecutors in advance of Trial in an attempt to have the charges discontinued, but a smart lawyer is careful what he discloses in those submissions, as they are rarely successful and could cause damage to your client's case at Trial.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:34 PM   #166
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

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Finally, you answered! You agree a confession is incriminating. Wasn't that hard to swallow your pride like that, was it?
You didn't really not get Poker Reference's point did you?
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:34 PM   #167
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

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I have explain the context of that statement. You can call me a moron as much as is necessary to make yourself feel better but you are wrong on what Jackson meant with that and it was not advice that people should not speak to the police. Maybe you can get phoenixs1 to explain Watts vs Indiana to you in small words so that you'll understand the context.
Ummmm....in case it wasn't obvious, I agree with General Tsao. Jackson made it blatantly obvious that a good lawyer advises his clients not to speak to police.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:36 PM   #168
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

Pheonix: Do you still misunderstand the argument?

The argument being made is that you shouldn't ever talk to cops because if you do, there is a very real chance you're going to say something incriminating. (We're ignoring how the fact that the cops are talking to you might be influenced by whether you have something to incriminate yourself over). To support this argument it was stated and repeated that in 25% of DNA exoneration cases the accused had "said something incriminating," which makes talking to cops sound very risky indeed.

MY counter-argument, which you keep pretending I haven't made in every single post, complete with links and statistics, is that the incriminating "something" in these cases was confessing to the crime, which we wouldn't lump in with saying "I didn't shoot him." That it was lumped in, that it necessarily must be lumped in for this 25% figure to have any legitimate place in this discussion, is my issue.

The counter-counter argument from Tsao was that the source of this figure is lying about it, like despite what the Innocence Project says about their work you and Tsao just have a gut feeling that IP really means "something incriminating" when they say "confession" because you want to keep using their number regardless of whether it represents what you want it to.


No one is saying that if it's gotten to the point where our hypothetical person of interest has hired an attorney, or if he's actually guilty, that he should keep talking.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:37 PM   #169
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

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Originally Posted by Henry17 View Post
phoenixs1,

I do have a law degree and unlike General Tsao I do believe you are lawyer. The fact that I was able to pick out that you have your picture on you card by the way you discuss law tells me everything I need to know.
POTY

Listen, if either of you two need an experienced investigator to analyze the police investigation for a client looking for holes, let me know.

I provide that.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:37 PM   #170
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

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You didn't really not get Poker Reference's point did you?
I thought it was just me.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:38 PM   #171
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

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Exculpatory evidence is presented at Trial, and not in advance to the Police.
This is retarded and just wrong. If you have exculpatory evidence you can probably avoid a trial completely.

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On occasion, we will do written submissions to the Prosecutors in advance of Trial in an attempt to have the charges discontinued, but a smart lawyer is careful what he discloses in those submissions, as they are rarely successful and could cause damage to your client's case at Trial.
I can't speak for Australia but this not at all true here.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:38 PM   #172
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

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Being smarted than defence lawyers doesn't require much. No one goes into law to be a defence lawyer.
LOL! Almost every person who studies law has dreams of becoming a defence lawyer thanks to tv and the movies. It's not nearly as glamorous as it's made out to be and many later regret their decision as their counterparts doing civil work start to make much more money than they do. You think lawyers don't dream of getting their faces on tv? No better way than by doing defence law.

Again, if you would refuse the advice of a good defence lawyer, and think you know better because you've had a few experences with police, you're a fool.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:40 PM   #173
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

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You didn't really not get Poker Reference's point did you?
LOL. You missed mine. If you think an experienced criminal defence lawyer was going to let someone avoid answering a direct question, as he was obviously attempting to do, you're more than a bit naive.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:40 PM   #174
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

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The counter-counter argument from Tsao was that the source of this figure is lying about it, like despite what the Innocence Project says about their work you and Tsao just have a gut feeling that IP really means "something incriminating" when they say "confession" because you want to keep using their number regardless of whether it represents what you want it to.
I didn't say anyone was lying you stupid ****, stop putting words in my mouth ****bag. I quoted directly from IP's website you ****ing empty-headed bottle of **** juice and it clearly included "incriminating statements" along with confessed/plead guilty. I've explained this to you thrice, but you are such a spasming **** muscle that you keep claiming I'm calling IP liars or something.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:41 PM   #175
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Re: 'I talked/didn't talk to the cops.' Your story.

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lol i know we're on the same page but i don't really believe phoenix is a lawyer

he's definitely not as stupid as henry17 though. then again, no one really is.
I'm more than happy for a mod to confirm it, with the rider of course that I am not providing legal advice here. Feel free to contact a mod with a view to having them confirm it.
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