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Old 11-21-2014, 11:56 AM   #101
AlexM
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

Rape culture is a huge problem in this country, but racism is worse.

Bill Clinton accused of raping and harassing women -> We love you, Bill!

Bill Cosby accused of raping white women -> Scumbag! Burn him at the stake!
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:04 PM   #102
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

Clinton wasn't raping them or drugging them, he was just sexing them up.
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:07 PM   #103
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

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Originally Posted by Howard Treesong View Post
What's stupid about the presumption of innocence? I've never understood why Cosby was so loved, and I've never been a fan, so I'm no apologist. But I don't know one way or the other whether or not he's actually a serial rapist. Concluding from what Cosby is accused of having done in the 1970s that we now live in a "rape culture" is a ridiculous overreach.
Presumption of innocence = I am open to more information.

"Presumption of innocence" = It's 50/50 that a dozen unrelated women are conspiring against a has-been with the same story, he only settled because the system is rigged, lol rape culture.
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:13 PM   #104
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

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Originally Posted by AlexM View Post
Rape culture is a huge problem in this country, but racism is worse.

Bill Clinton accused of raping and harassing women -> We love you, Bill!

Bill Cosby accused of raping white women -> Scumbag! Burn him at the stake!
youre forgetting the decades of everyone completely ignoring the bill cosby rape, so your argument is pretty stupid
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:14 PM   #105
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

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Clinton wasn't raping them or drugging them, he was just sexing them up.
Not all of them, but he was accused of rape.
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:14 PM   #106
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

alobar you're falling for the kkk media plot against bill cosby, OPEN YOUR EYES
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:16 PM   #107
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

Calling Cosby a has-been is a little harsh. Now he will be a has-been soon.
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:16 PM   #108
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

People know Cliff Huxtable isn't real, right?
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:17 PM   #109
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

Howard, ianal, but I believe the presumption of innocence is a legal right that places the burden of proof on the prosecution, not something that applies to the general public discussing public allegations.

Your suggestion that anyone is concluding that we now live in a "rape culture" based on what Cosby is accused of having done in the 1970s is, itself, a ridiculous overreach. People were talking about rape culture even before last week.
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:24 PM   #110
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

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Howard, ianal, but I believe the presumption of innocence is a legal right that places the burden of proof on the prosecution, not something that applies to the general public discussing public allegations.
You're correct. It seems to me that we ought not, however, to behave like an intellectual lynch mob.

Quote:
Your suggestion that anyone is concluding that we now live in a "rape culture" based on what Cosby is accused of having done in the 1970s is, itself, a ridiculous overreach. People were talking about rape culture even before last week.
All I'm saying is that the Cosby allegations really don't change the calculus one way or the other. I'm not at all saying that we do or don't live in a rape culture; I just don't think decades-old allegations help to determine the issue.
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:30 PM   #111
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

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Originally Posted by Howard Treesong View Post
What's stupid about the presumption of innocence? I've never understood why Cosby was so loved, and I've never been a fan, so I'm no apologist. But I don't know one way or the other whether or not he's actually a serial rapist. Concluding from what Cosby is accused of having done in the 1970s that we now live in a "rape culture" is a ridiculous overreach.
The presumption of innocense only applies in the courtroom. No one else is under any obligation. When someone is accused of something I weigh what is known to me to decide whether they're likely guilty or not. Personally I use the "preponderance of the evidence" standard rather than the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard. The idea that all these women are simply making this story up is bordering on absurdity, so I believe Bill Cosby is a rapist scumbag.

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Originally Posted by AlexM View Post
Rape culture is a huge problem in this country, but racism is worse.

Bill Clinton accused of raping and harassing women -> We love you, Bill!

Bill Cosby accused of raping white women -> Scumbag! Burn him at the stake!
If Bill Cosby was white you think he'd get the "we love you Bill!" treatment? That's an...interesting perspective. Jian Ghomeshi (most Americans don't know him, but hes apparently beloved in Canada) just lost his job and became a social pariah because of similar accusations.

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Clinton wasn't raping them or drugging them, he was just sexing them up.
He was accused of assault by some.
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:32 PM   #112
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

I feel comfortable given the evidence to treat him as guilty. Same way I treated OJ as guilty, and tons of other people you knew did what they were accused of, whether or not it went to trial or even if they were found innocent in a court of law.

Is that potentially a scary attitude to have? sure, but only when youre wrong
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:34 PM   #113
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

Howard, I was in on the OJ intellectual lynch mob, and have no regrets, even though we now know he was not guilty. I will have no regrets about being on this intellectual lynch mob even if Cosby is never charged or found not guilty.

re 2nd point, fair enough.
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:35 PM   #114
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

Alobar, stfu about OJ. I started writing my post before you did
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:38 PM   #115
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

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I feel comfortable given the evidence to treat him as guilty. Same way I treated OJ as guilty, and tons of other people you knew did what they were accused of, whether or not it went to trial or even if they were found innocent in a court of law.

Is that potentially a scary attitude to have? sure, but only when youre wrong
OJ went through a trial, where witnesses actually had to confront him. Are you confident that you know what happened in Ferguson, or with the Florida killing? I entirely agree that the statements against Cosby seem both horrific and compelling, but I think the downsides of a lynch mob mentality are damn bad. Best example I can think of immediately is the Duke lacrosse players, who were absolutely pilloried in the media as representative of a white-dominated, elitist rape culture. And those guys were one hundred per cent innocent.
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:39 PM   #116
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

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Originally Posted by gregorio View Post
Howard, I was in on the OJ intellectual lynch mob, and have no regrets, even though we now know he was not guilty. I will have no regrets about being on this intellectual lynch mob even if Cosby is never charged or found not guilty.

re 2nd point, fair enough.
Actually, OJ was found civilly liable for the deaths, and I'm quite confident that his criminal jury just got it wrong. I'd happily throw a sharp rock at OJ in the public square.

My point was that the evidence in that trial was aired out, permitting most of us to come to a much more informed judgment. Not so w/r/t Cosby.
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:39 PM   #117
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

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Do the rape claims predate Ennis getting killed?

Probably I guess but damn. That could unhinge anyone.
One of them predates Ennis being born.
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:42 PM   #118
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

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Alobar, stfu
FYP
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:47 PM   #119
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

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Originally Posted by Howard Treesong View Post
OJ went through a trial, where witnesses actually had to confront him. Are you confident that you know what happened in Ferguson, or with the Florida killing? I entirely agree that the statements against Cosby seem both horrific and compelling, but I think the downsides of a lynch mob mentality are damn bad. Only example I can think of immediately is the Duke lacrosse players, who were absolutely pilloried in the media as representative of a white-dominated, elitist rape culture. And those guys were one hundred per cent innocent.
.

Bill Cosby is a rapist. The witnesses were waiting to testify against him during a civil trial when he suddenly settled and put a gag on the complainant.

This week his lawyers used her inability to speak about it to their advantage when they said the accusations were proven to be unfounded.

**** that guy.
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:53 PM   #120
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

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Originally Posted by Howard Treesong View Post
OJ went through a trial, where witnesses actually had to confront him. Are you confident that you know what happened in Ferguson, or with the Florida killing? I entirely agree that the statements against Cosby seem both horrific and compelling, but I think the downsides of a lynch mob mentality are damn bad. Best example I can think of immediately is the Duke lacrosse players, who were absolutely pilloried in the media as representative of a white-dominated, elitist rape culture. And those guys were one hundred per cent innocent.
In stuff like Ferguson and Florida, I simply admit I have no idea what the truth is. I might have an opinion on what I think happened, but I don't hold strongly to it, because I just don't know.

I 100% agree with you that its an absolutely terrible thing when this happens and public opinion is wrong. And we'd maybe be better as a society if such judgements didnt take place. But as a society we hold the values of justice and vengeance in high esteem, so I think its only natural that when someone like Cosby who is no doubt guilty, is never going to face any legal ramifications for his actions, people want to see that he gets his. Sure, some people just want to see him fall cuz hes an uppity ******, and others will defend him simply because there are people that fan the flames cuz hes black, and all we do anymore is pay attention to either end of the "bell curve" instead of what the middle thinks. so we get into dumb arguments about rape culture and racism. People care more tho that the Roman Polanskis and Bill Cosbys of the world are seen for what they are, than they do that they might get it wrong, so as potentially scary as it is, I dont see any way to stop such lynchings.
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:57 PM   #121
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

Wasn't there just one victim in the Duke Lacrosse case though? Seems with like 15 or more women coming forward in this one there should be much less doubt.
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Old 11-21-2014, 01:03 PM   #122
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

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Sure, some people just want to see him fall cuz hes an uppity ******, and others will defend him simply because there are people that fan the flames cuz hes black...
This sounds like a description of the comments on the FoxNews website after they broke the story. Approximately 20% thought he was just another ****** who fell from grace, while the other 80% thought that all of these women are lying and just want money.

I can imagine the cognitive dissonance experienced by many of the mouth breathers as they tried to decide who to hate as they were reading the article.
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Old 11-21-2014, 01:09 PM   #123
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

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Wasn't there just one victim in the Duke Lacrosse case though? Seems with like 15 or more women coming forward in this one there should be much less doubt.
exactly
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Old 11-21-2014, 01:31 PM   #124
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

I should have gone with my, "statute of limitations is a dumb law." post.
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Old 11-21-2014, 01:46 PM   #125
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Re: Bill Cosby Is A Scumbag

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Howard, I was in on the OJ intellectual lynch mob, and have no regrets, even though we now know he was not guilty. I will have no regrets about being on this intellectual lynch mob even if Cosby is never charged or found not guilty.

re 2nd point, fair enough.
When did we learn this?
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