What I'm saying is the "positive experience" will not occur if you know what you're taking is a placebo (or, say, a supplement that has no proven efficacy). From wiki:

In your case, you seem to very much want this supplement to work despite also seeming to understand that there is no scientific backing to substantiate the claims, so maybe you will still experience some effect based on your positive expectations. I can't imagine it will be significant, long-lasting or consistent though. I also doubt it will be anything you will be able to quantify more concretely then "I DID kind of feel more focused now that I think about it..." Good luck.

Yes. That is using a 100% placebo.

Youre missing the point in that you cant prove to me that Nootropics have no effects other than those created by the taker.

If I took something you dished out as a mood elevator and felt uplifted from them, then you turned round and showed me they were Tic Tacs id been taking then im positive the whole episode will be like the one you describe.

With Nootropics, you cant do that, so while I am aware it could be partially or even totally a placebo, im also aware that there are positive studies with blind tests that seem to show otherwise. So much so that im willing to see what, if anything they do.

Im not sure if youve ever taken any recreational drugs, but often the effects are dictated and enhanced by your frame of mind. I personally suspect it could depend a lot on that type of thing.

Also, if you want any ill ship you some for a double test month alongside mine, in the interest of science

Yawn. Massive key jockeying in this thread now. If you've never tried a noot and are just guessing as to it's effectiveness, you should probably stfu.

You have no idea. No seriously, you have no idea.

At this point I honestly don't know how to make you understand that the burden of proof lies on those asserting the claims (Alpha Brain, et al) and not me. It's like you asking me to prove to you there's no such thing as Santa Claus. Well, I can't. But he's never been observed and you're claiming he exists, so YOU must prove that he does. Get it?

Yes, but if I gave them to you again, you'd know they were Tic Tacs and the effect would disappear once and for all.


Well, I'm convinced. Where do I enter my credit card information?

I mean you are coming at me here, not the other way around.. Ive already stated I have no experience or knowledge. I am testing them out for myself to make an informed decision on how I react to them.

I have zero requirement to prove anything to anyone.

You seem to have just taken it upon yourself to champion the scam line, and as far as I can tell are trying to state it as fact (or as near as much) when youve done nothing but a bit of googling.

Im not saying ive done any more, I am just not trying to shout people down when its clear there could be more than one genuine outcome. I.E there is zero validity in any of the claims about Nootropics, or they are highly effective in certain regards.



This is completely irrelevant, and is almost becoming a straw man. We can argue about the finer psychological aspects of THE PLACEBO EFFECT if you want, but its really not the point at all.

The point isn't to convince you. It's to try get you to stfu and stop trolling. You have no idea what you're talking about. I understand being skeptical but dropping by just to tell everyone they're wrong when you''ve never even tried it is lol.

Lol don't get mad. You're the one trolling. I'm having an intelligent discussion with other people. If I'm wrong, explain how. Don't just troll.

This is also questionable. There have been studies where people have been told they are on the placebo and they still get the effects.

Like you said, I can't prove you're wrong. I can only say you know very little about what you're talking and the fact that you have no experience in the matter makes your opinion near worthless.

For anyone in this thread who is skeptical, do your own research and take into consideration the opinions of people who: a) are involved in related research or b) have first hand experience.

There are numerous articles and papers about specific noots and their effects on the brain. They have been proven, but the benefits have not. Of course much more research should be done in this area and it's happening now. That doesn't mean you can just say "ha there's no definitive proof, you're all dumb!"

Not you personally, but the companies who are marketing this stuff and making unfounded claims.

[/quote]
You seem to have just taken it upon yourself to champion the scam line, and as far as I can tell are trying to state it as fact (or as near as much) when youve done nothing but a bit of googling.

Im not saying ive done any more, I am just not trying to shout people down when its clear there could be more than one genuine outcome. I.E there is zero validity in any of the claims about Nootropics, or they are highly effective in certain regards.[/quote]

To me, if a company or individual willfully tries to deceive or mislead a customer, then that is a scam. Alpha Brain et al have presented their "scientific evidence" to support their claims, but as was discussed earlier itt, that evidence doesn't meet the standards needed to validate what they are saying. I guess there is some chance that the people behind these companies are actually dumb enough to believe what they are selling and think that they actually do have real evidence, but I highly doubt that. Most likely it's nothing more than modern day snake oil.




Ha, I'm happy to drop the placebo discussion as well since I'm at a total loss to understand the point you are trying to make about knowingly taking a placebo and still experiencing some placebo effect. It just doesn't work that way. That's all I know.

Show your work.

traz: Hey, fsoyars, this guy offered me these magic beans, says if I eat them I will become smarter. Should I buy them?

fsoyars: Nah, there's no proof that those do anything. Save your money.

traz: Have you ever tried them?

fsoyars: lol, no.

traz: THEN YOUR OPINION IS WORTHLESS!

fsoyars: Haha, whoa...

I've done plenty of research. Have you read this whole thread or are you just grunching? I don't need first hand experience to have an informed opinion. I've never tried heroin but I know it will kill me.

Well of course I can say there's no definitive proof... bc there isn't. And I haven't called anyone dumb. If my tone has made you feel that way, I apologize.

As for the "numerous articles and papers," please show your work. I'd like to see a clinical study (not a basic scientific study) performed on healthy individuals that is verified by a primary source (not some random supplement site). I have yet to see one. Like you said, maybe they are being done now and will be available in the future but until the day that I see that a drug has surpassed rigorous clinical trials and published in peer-reviewed literature to support the specific claims about its efficacy, I'm not wasting my money on it. These companies will use deceptive marketing tactics to make it seem like all that has been done, when in fact, it hasn't.

Best part of thread:

"Nootropics have NO scientific basis for a positive effect. NONE."

"What about this double-blind controlled study on healthy college students?"

"That's NOT ENOUGH studies! I don't have to prove a negative!"

RE placebo effect: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...ents-sham-drug

I honestly thought about looking for all of the noot studies that have been done but then I remembered you're a troll. Have you even posted anything credible yourself, outside of one site talking about marketing tactics? Go ahead and try.

I bet the only things you continue to post are uninformed opinions.

It's too bad because there is alot of great discussion that could be had about this topic but this thread is going to get destroyed real quick.

That's very cool. Of course, it's the same basic principle at work considering:

Similar to a blind placebo, the doctors suggest to the patients that the placebo will work and then it does. It's still all about patient expectations. It's far from definitive,

But if that can be replicated, it's a very cool idea. What would be really cooler would be if a doctor could tell a patient "this is a placebo and there's no reason it should have any effect on you." And then it still does. But anyway, if you can create a positive effect by knowingly using a placebo, why would you waste your money on nootropics? Just tell yourself that tic tacs will do the trick and voila, you've got your results.

So, you've got nothing. No surprise here.

What is it you're looking for me to post? I'm not asserting anything, so I don't see how there's anything for me to prove to you. All I'm doing is asking for proof from those who are asserting things, i.e. the nootropic shills and blind fanboys. I have never once said "there is no possible way nootropics do anything good for you." I've only said that the lack of evidence to support that notion makes it seem highly unlikely and not worth spending your money on. And, yes, I called Alpha Brain and the like "a scam." But that's not bc I'm convinced nootropics necessarily have zero effect (although that's probably true), it's bc these companies are intentionally misleading their customers into believing something that isn't true, i.e. there is solid scientific backing to support their claims when there isn't.

What's odd to me is that you say what you want itt is "great discussion about this topic" but why is it that if someone questions the truth behind the claims about nootropics that's not discussion, that's trolling and destroying the thread? Your blind determination to only hear good things about this topic is bizarre. If you're going to spend money on something, aren't you the least bit interested to hear both sides of the discussion as to whether or not it is what it is claimed to be?

Anyways I'm done replying to you. For everyone else, the bodybuilding and longecity forums are great places to start. They both discuss noots heavily and often post studies and articles they come across. Some of them are incredibly smart and there is a ton of good info if you put in the effort.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/search...rchid=87208121
http://www.longecity.org/forum/forum/169-nootropics/